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Hello and welcome to the Nogrom talks podcast brought to you from East London

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and supported

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by Campari. Set up to be lively, provocative debates on issues around

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architecture and

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organised by architects for the space with the assistance of Rob Fain, the

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talks are

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designed to emulate the opinionated and convivial free-flown debates found in

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the fantasy

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equir European-cave society, being fuelled by food, drink and particularly gro

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dy. There's

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no stage, no standing on ceremony and the audience are asked to participate as

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much as invited

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speakers and the chair for the event. These recordings are presented as they

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happen live

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and like the talks themselves with no frills and little or no editing, to be

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the arguments

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of the evening, direct and unfiltered.

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Hello, welcome everyone. My name is Helen Parton. I'm a journalist, author and

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moderator

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for this evening, which I'm really excited about. It's one of my favourite

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things to

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do and with this topic it's something that I'm pretty passionate about. The

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fabric of

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fear, designing out danger in the urban realm. Well, the first thing that came

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to mind when

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I was thinking about this was that incredibly poignant image of the redheaded

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woman being

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held down by several police officers during the Sarah Everard vigil, I'm sure

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you know

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which one I mean, which occurred on the 13th of March three years ago, but I

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think it

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probably all sticks in our minds in terms of women's safety and others in the

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community's

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ability to go where they want, when they want. And really, in the first point,

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whether the

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degree to which those in law enforcement really have our backs and enable us to

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go where we

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want to be and have the freedom to go about our business in the way that we

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want to and

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how they've been found lacking in a number of occasions in the last few years.

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But they're

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not the only ones. There are a number of stakeholders involved in the topic of

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safety

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in the public realm. So this is really about having a rethink of how we shape

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the cities

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of the future and how we're able to be creating truly inclusive spaces. So that

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's what we're

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all about this evening to kind of have that discussion and hopefully move the

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conversation

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on a little bit. And as Hugh said, where's he gone? To inspire some action as

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well as

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just words. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce our speakers for

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this evening.

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So in front of me, I have Hannah Benahoot, which is so lovely to see you again.

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North

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London represent. So artists, can I say the architect thing? Architecting

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recovery.

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His work spans public art, illustration, education and so much more. We'll be

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hearing a lot from

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Hannah later as we will. Deborah. Deborah's over that. Amazing. Deborah Saunt,

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founding

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director of DSDHA Architects. And again, so many projects that I want to ask

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you about.

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And yeah, really pushing the conversation forward. So can't wait to hear what

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you've

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done today. Now Martin Evans, again, have known you for a long time. And it's

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great to

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be on a panel with you. Finally, I don't think we've been on a panel together.

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How

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fabulous. So Martin is creative director of Landsat UNI. So we'll be coming at

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it with

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a very serious developer for standpoint, of course, and always has something

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amazing to

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say. So yeah, it's great to have Martin on the panel as well. And we've got

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Sarah

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Ackland, who is in front of me. It's great. So Sarah is project architect with

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Muff architecture

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art. And yeah, I am doing a little bit of digging. So yeah, Sarah too. Let's

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bring it

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on. So let's do some scene settings. So perhaps this might be a chance for all

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of the panels.

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We do have one panelist who's not with us who will have a bit of audio from to

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also provide

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another valuable contribution. But I'll come on to that in a second. So let me

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get this

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in gambit. So can you perhaps introduce yourselves panelists in a little bit

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more detail? I've

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introduced them. Yeah, but I was going to say perhaps, you know, where do you

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come at

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this subject from, you know, where do you come to this subject at, you know,

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what's

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the first step if you were introducing this subject? Let's say not at a dinner

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party because

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of the class. I don't know, in the pub. What's the first step? What's the first

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, you know,

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thing to bear in mind when taking a fresh look at designing out, designing, you

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know,

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more inclusive urban landscapes to make it safer for all. So no biggie to start

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off

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with. So Martin, let's come to you first.

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Can we just stand up? As you wish.

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Can we just stand up? Yeah, I mean.

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Stand over here. Hello everybody. Hello, Helen.

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Hey. So I'm a property developer, Helen says, if I say that out loud in some

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rooms, people

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hear. So it's not often the best thing to say. But what I say as a way of damp

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ening that

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down is that there's not much that we do in our lives that isn't involved with

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property.

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We get born, we die, we get sick and get healed, we have our children, we fall

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in love, we

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sleep, we work. Everything that we do, we either do in or around a building.

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And so if any

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of us, probably all of us in this room have got anything to do with building

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buildings

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and making places, it's about all of life. And there's probably, you know,

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second to

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the health care or food industries, it's probably not another industry that has

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that

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much impact on people's lives. And so if we're bothered at all about the world

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and people,

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and we've got an enormous responsibility as people who work in this business,

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and an

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enormous responsibility to make places that are good for people, because I can

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't see the

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point of doing anything else. And there is a lie in my industry that is, if

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people are

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happy, it's not necessarily valuable. And that's a terrible lie that bad

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property developers

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tell you, because happy people create valuable places because they work. And so

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I think the

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way that I want to do my job every day is to understand how we build places

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that make

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people happy, that make people thrive, that give them the lives that make them

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safe, comfortable,

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make their children happy when they get to old age and get lonely, they're a

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little bit

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less lonely. All of those things, all those problems that we have, we can do

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something

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about in our business. And the more that we do about them, the better the

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places that

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we make, and the more valuable they are, so my shareholders are happy. And all

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of those

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things can all happen at the same time. So I think that we, I'm just going to

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shut up

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now, but I'm just going to say that the thing that we need to focus on to

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address this subject,

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which is about fear, is about making places where people feel happy and

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comfortable and

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can have good lives that mean they can thrive. Because if they can do that,

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then they're

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probably going to be happy and safe. Fabulous. Thank you, Martin. Now, as

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promised, Rob,

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do we have the audio ready? Oh, yeah, is that, can we work? Can we do that?

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Okay. Yeah,

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I think this is South explanatory. Okay, well, yeah, I'll explain what we're

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listening

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to before we listen to it. So we do have an additional speaker who can't with

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us tonight,

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Farah, Farah, Benice, who is FFA security group and also cat calls of London

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rep. So she's

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going to be talking from a couple of perspectives about this issue. So Rob, if

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you are ready,

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let's roll. This is our attempt to be as inclusive as possible.

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Good evening. I'm Farah Benice and I am the managing director at FFA security

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group. My

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background and main work life is in physical protection and security risk

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management consulting.

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My other hand is in women's safety and violence against women and girls

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prevention. I also

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ran or run a campaign under the heading cat calls of London, which has taken

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over 28,000

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stories of public sexual harassment from London alone. And under that banner, I

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facilitate

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youth workshops covering a variety of topics such as sexual harassment, consent

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, bystander

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intervention and community building. Over the last few years, I've engaged in

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your urban

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planning community in a few different ways, largely thanks to Dina Bournat at Z

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CD architects

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which has led me to a keen interest in crime prevention through environmental

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design, an

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approach I like because it emphasizes the strategic use of the built

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environment to

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enhance safety and reduce fear, particularly for vulnerable populations.

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I think one of the first steps in reimagining urban landscapes to bolster

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safety involves

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gaining a really comprehensive understanding of how design influences human

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behaviour

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and perceptions of security. This begins with the principle of natural

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surveillance, which

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posits that public spaces should be designed to maximise visibility. And so

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this includes

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proper lighting, clear sight lines and things like strategic placement of

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windows to foster

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a sense of watchfulness and community guardianship. And also, if there is one

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thing you take

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away from this evening, please, please, please, no more recessed doors down

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dark alleyways.

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If you ever walk through London back streets late at night, you will start

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cursing the

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people that think those are a good idea. I'm in a sidebar. There's an excellent

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book

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on school safety by Paul Timms, two M's, which although through American school

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lens, it addresses

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crime prevention through environmental design, but also the importance of util

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ising and engaging

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with community to foster safer environments. So I really recommend that to

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anyone interested

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in diving further into this subject after tonight. Getting back on track to my

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provided

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synopsis, I think it's clear that in urban environments, the prevailing

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approach to

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development is very often driven by profit motives and characterised by dense

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housing

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without adequate consideration for mixed use spaces, which has significant

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implications

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for safety and community well-being. And the reality is when we prioritise

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profit over

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people, it does lead to environments that feel unsafe, particularly after dark.

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And that's

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something that can exacerbate feelings of isolation and fear among community

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residents.

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So how do we counteract this? Urban planners and designers have to adopt a

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holistic view

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that considers the diverse needs of all community members. And this includes

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integrating mixed

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use developments that encourage activity and engagement, thereby creating eyes

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on the street,

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which is a concept championed by urban sociologist Jane Jacobs. That's also

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another very good

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book recommendation, by the way. So by engaging community members in the design

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process, we

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can ensure that solutions are responsive to the unique needs and concerns of

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the people

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who actually have to live in these spaces. So just to finish up, because I fear

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I'm going

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on here, but I think it's really important to note that tackling fear and

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enhancing safety

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is also not solely the responsibility of those who experience it. It's a

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collective societal

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duty that we all have and should play a part in. And this requires a

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significant cultural

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shift towards empathy and proactive engagement in safety initiatives and things

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like public

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art and community led design processes and educational campaigns. They can all

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play really

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pivotal roles in raising awareness and fostering a shared commitment to

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creating safer, more

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inclusive urban environments. So I guess the first step towards safer urban

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landscapes

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is a paradigm shift in how we conceive of and interact with our built

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environment. And

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this involves a move away from design practices driven solely by economic

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considerations

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and move towards a more inclusive community centric approach that values safety

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and engagement

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and the well-being of all citizens. If we foster environments that are not only

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physically

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safer but also perceived as safer, we can begin to address the deep-seated

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issues of

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fear and vulnerability in our urban spaces. I'm going to stop there and take a

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very big

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sip of the Negroni I'm drinking in honour of this evening's festivities. But

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thank you

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00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:34.500
very much and I'm really looking forward to hearing how this discussion

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continues.

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Perfect. Gosh, that works. Right. There is such a thing as a hybrid event after

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all.

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Right. So, well, it feels like we plan this perfectly seamlessly public art

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being at

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least one of the saviors of safety. So it feels like a really opportune time to

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hand

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over to Hannah. Hi. Hello. Hello. Hello. I can't really remember the question.

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Oh, gosh,

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00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:10.120
the question was so long ago. It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just

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going to go

278
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for it. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah. So I suppose picking up from that, I am an

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artist. So

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I come at this topic looking at how public art can have an effect on how people

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feel

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within the city. And so I think even if everyone like all aligns and we've like

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kind of agree

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like in terms of planners and property developers and everyone kind of decide

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there are certain

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spaces that aren't safe, like horrible alleyways or something, it takes so long

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for the urban

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environment to change like it goes into some planning policy which trickles

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down, which

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trickles down. So like for seven years, we all agree that a certain alleyway is

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awful

292
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and then it takes seven years to change it. So in the meantime, what can we do

293
00:15:55.530 --> 00:15:56.120
in these

294
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spaces? So that's what I think specifically public art can pay a really

295
00:16:00.910 --> 00:16:02.000
interesting low

296
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:10.530
cost like high impact role. And I think artists are such a wealth of knowledge

297
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and creativity

298
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:16.790
that clients and people can tap into to actually make changes in these spaces.

299
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And I think sometimes

300
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.880
there's always like this idea that the way you make something safe is by like

301
00:16:21.880 --> 00:16:22.240
flooding

302
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.030
it with light. And I don't think it always needs to be quite that

303
00:16:25.030 --> 00:16:26.160
straightforward. I

304
00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:30.450
think just the idea of delighting people and the city or making people laugh or

305
00:16:30.450 --> 00:16:30.920
making

306
00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:35.410
people smile when they turn a corner can have just as much as of like a

307
00:16:35.410 --> 00:16:36.520
fabulous effect

308
00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:41.000
on the city and change your experience of it rather than just always flooding

309
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:41.440
things

310
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:48.360
with light. So yeah, I just think that like art has such a like a fabulous role

311
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:49.000
to play

312
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:54.130
when we're talking about fear and safety around the city. So yeah, that's kind

313
00:16:54.130 --> 00:16:54.400
of my

314
00:16:54.400 --> 00:16:55.400
perspective.

315
00:16:55.400 --> 00:17:00.710
Perfect, perfect. Hello. Sarah, I'm going to come to you next. So I do love a

316
00:17:00.710 --> 00:17:00.840
part

317
00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:09.170
one. So first steps running, running in a city. So I'd like to hear about your

318
00:17:09.170 --> 00:17:10.080
experiences

319
00:17:10.080 --> 00:17:14.950
of safety in the urban realm and also what you've been researching as well. I

320
00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:15.440
think

321
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.370
you just push the thing up. Hopefully that works. Or maybe not. You can grab

322
00:17:19.370 --> 00:17:20.000
this one

323
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:29.280
if you want. This definitely works. So I'm going to hand it over.

324
00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:42.190
Hello. Yeah, that works. Okay, well abandoned that one. Thank you. Yeah, I'm

325
00:17:42.190 --> 00:17:44.160
here because

326
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:49.880
some people email the guys and told them that I should be on the panel. No.

327
00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:51.240
Yeah, so I'm

328
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:56.330
doing a PhD that's looking at women in public space through the lens of women

329
00:17:56.330 --> 00:17:57.200
running. And

330
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I work at Muff Architecture Arts, which is always at least 80% women practice.

331
00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:05.680
We're

332
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:11.680
about to become 100%. And I think it's our first time, which is a bit daunting,

333
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:12.840
actually.

334
00:18:12.840 --> 00:18:18.130
But I can't remember the question either. Oh, the question was, what's the

335
00:18:18.130 --> 00:18:18.840
first step

336
00:18:18.840 --> 00:18:24.120
in addressing the issue of improving the public realm so that it's safe for

337
00:18:24.120 --> 00:18:25.200
everybody? Just

338
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:33.080
kind of a scene setting kind of introduction slash you are. From sort of my

339
00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:34.400
work, I have

340
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.930
sort of used running as a tool to speak to women outside of architecture

341
00:18:37.930 --> 00:18:38.720
because we're

342
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:46.140
just such an echo chamber. Like we are the worst. And I think it's really first

343
00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:46.520
ly about

344
00:18:46.520 --> 00:18:50.490
listening. It's about putting us out in space as you don't normally go in,

345
00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:51.480
actually trying

346
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:57.700
to find the silent voice when you meet a new client and then like, oh yeah, we

347
00:18:57.700 --> 00:18:58.280
're working

348
00:18:58.280 --> 00:19:01.580
with this fantastic group of stakeholders. It's like, okay, well, those are the

349
00:19:01.580 --> 00:19:01.960
people

350
00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.880
they want you to talk to. What about the people that they maybe don't even see

351
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:06.800
themselves?

352
00:19:06.800 --> 00:19:11.420
Which you only really find out by getting in the space really, really hard. I

353
00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:12.320
used running

354
00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:18.810
with that basically by just sort of running around places and getting super

355
00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:19.360
embedded

356
00:19:19.360 --> 00:19:24.810
and listening. People think they're listening and they're not. And you can't

357
00:19:24.810 --> 00:19:25.840
really do listening

358
00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:32.740
on a 3pm consultation on a Wednesday. You're not going to meet the right people

359
00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:33.320
. You really

360
00:19:33.320 --> 00:19:38.100
have to gain trust for people to really talk to you as well. So that's my first

361
00:19:38.100 --> 00:19:38.920
ly listen

362
00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.000
and understand the constrictions that people have in space. And then I think my

363
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:42.640
other approach

364
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:46.600
to things is similar to Hannah really is actually thinking about expansion and

365
00:19:46.600 --> 00:19:47.240
how much joy

366
00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:52.550
we can have in a space and really celebrate that and create space for it

367
00:19:52.550 --> 00:19:53.840
instead of kind

368
00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:58.310
of being like, okay, well, that space works. And it's like, let's celebrate

369
00:19:58.310 --> 00:19:59.480
that that works

370
00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.420
and see how we can bring that into the spaces that are a little bit more

371
00:20:02.420 --> 00:20:03.720
difficult to navigate.

372
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.480
So that's sort of what I mean, actually, I've just handed in the first draft of

373
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:08.040
my PhD

374
00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:09.960
and that's pretty much a conclusion.

375
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:17.120
Well, congratulations on that one, I have to say. So yeah, just a reminder if

376
00:20:17.120 --> 00:20:17.720
anyone

377
00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:22.000
wants to jump in from the audience with their opinions, just let me know. We

378
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.320
can go to you.

379
00:20:23.320 --> 00:20:25.580
I thought what was quite interesting when you mentioned running was that there

380
00:20:25.580 --> 00:20:26.400
was an advert

381
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:33.540
that Samsung had quite recently. It was like, it's 2am. I'll go for a run. And

382
00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:33.960
you're like,

383
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:40.360
well, that's not really how it works. So we've got a... Oh, hang on.

384
00:20:40.360 --> 00:20:46.980
Oh, hang on. Oh, yeah, oh, and Deborah, of course, God God. What a faux pas,

385
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:47.480
that is

386
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.060
Deborah's sword. I don't mind. Oh, my goodness. I don't mind sitting this one

387
00:20:51.060 --> 00:20:53.720
out. No, no.

388
00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:59.000
Of course not. Deborah's sword. Let's have your views on the first steps that

389
00:20:59.000 --> 00:20:59.320
one would

390
00:20:59.320 --> 00:21:05.640
take to improve the public. I think whenever you are asked to look at an issue

391
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:06.280
or a challenge,

392
00:21:06.280 --> 00:21:10.910
you kind of stand back and ask what is the higher kind of purpose of the

393
00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:12.760
question. So when I look

394
00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:18.360
at the fabric of fear, it speaks to me of everything that a city shouldn't be.

395
00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:21.000
And so my guiding

396
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:27.920
light is that the city should be... We all have a right to the city to a

397
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.280
democratized accessible

398
00:21:30.280 --> 00:21:36.360
space. So you start from that idea of making it as inclusive as possible. And

399
00:21:36.360 --> 00:21:38.920
so with that in mind,

400
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:44.410
I always put myself in an uncomfortable position of trying to ask myself

401
00:21:44.410 --> 00:21:45.640
questions that I don't

402
00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:50.150
know the answer. And so at the moment, I'm working with my... I call them my

403
00:21:50.150 --> 00:21:51.240
friends now because I've

404
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:54.720
got two of my design think tank students from the London School of Architecture

405
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:55.320
here, and here's

406
00:21:55.320 --> 00:21:59.240
another London School of Architecture student. So my way of addressing problems

407
00:21:59.240 --> 00:21:59.800
like that is to

408
00:21:59.800 --> 00:22:04.670
do research. And the London School of Architecture looks at these big problems

409
00:22:04.670 --> 00:22:05.800
about rights to the

410
00:22:05.800 --> 00:22:09.820
city. And this year we're looking at... We've all heard the word defund the

411
00:22:09.820 --> 00:22:12.360
police. So we're actually,

412
00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:18.730
well Ben, what are we looking at? Imagineing, thank you there, but we're

413
00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:22.600
imagining a world without

414
00:22:22.600 --> 00:22:27.070
the Metropolitan Police, specifically happening. So we're looking at what

415
00:22:27.070 --> 00:22:28.440
happens if you

416
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:33.970
de-police the city, and I could probably talk with Ben and others about that

417
00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:34.760
later.

418
00:22:34.760 --> 00:22:39.050
Oh wow, wow. I was having an interesting conversation with someone else at the

419
00:22:39.050 --> 00:22:39.640
other end of the room,

420
00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:44.920
about the police earlier on in a slight different angle. So maybe we'll come on

421
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:45.320
to that.

422
00:22:45.320 --> 00:22:48.680
But first, let's hear from the lady in the left-audskin.

423
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:56.680
Just thank you for everybody's contributions. It's really interesting. I think

424
00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:57.480
I have

425
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:04.290
lots of thoughts on design of public space. Just to give some context, I'm an

426
00:23:04.290 --> 00:23:05.480
architect and

427
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:11.160
do projects in public space, but I also work for council and head place making

428
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.280
for projects

429
00:23:12.280 --> 00:23:17.420
for that council. So we are people who kind of really look at this topic quite

430
00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:18.200
intensely,

431
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.260
because the space new design can then have loads of... I mean, guarantee there

432
00:23:22.260 --> 00:23:23.320
's graffiti on the bench

433
00:23:23.320 --> 00:23:27.660
just after you put it there. You know, they see it and they want that. There's

434
00:23:27.660 --> 00:23:28.680
so many issues when

435
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:33.940
it comes to safety and inclusion. And I think what my kind of question to

436
00:23:33.940 --> 00:23:35.640
everybody really is where

437
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:39.940
this balance lies, because whether it's about inclusion, i.e. the concept of

438
00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:41.240
inclusion, no one is

439
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.340
ever fully inclusive actually. Inclusive spaces mean you provide lots of

440
00:23:44.340 --> 00:23:45.720
different ones for different

441
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.950
people, because you're never like otherwise you have nothing. And then

442
00:23:49.950 --> 00:23:51.240
similarly, when you talk

443
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:56.420
about safety, what we always find is that met police, cured by design, come in

444
00:23:56.420 --> 00:23:57.560
and go, oh no,

445
00:23:57.560 --> 00:24:02.080
like that makes people gather there or people drink there or people do that

446
00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:03.240
there. And basically,

447
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.020
they don't want people together. So in our council, what's happened is that,

448
00:24:07.020 --> 00:24:08.200
yeah, crime's gone down,

449
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.050
because we've made loads of, you know, aggressive architecture or areas that

450
00:24:12.050 --> 00:24:13.640
people can't gather in,

451
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:19.310
but it means no one's using any public spaces. So is it... How do you, you know

452
00:24:19.310 --> 00:24:20.520
, achieve this

453
00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:28.780
balance between designing, you know, safe spaces that, you know, also good for

454
00:24:28.780 --> 00:24:29.880
people to use and

455
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:34.340
inclusive spaces that are also particular. So where does the balance lie and

456
00:24:34.340 --> 00:24:35.880
where do we find that point?

457
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:41.400
That's a great question and thank you for contributing. So Martin, I might come

458
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:42.600
to you on this one

459
00:24:42.600 --> 00:24:51.880
firstly. Have you got a mic at the moment? You asking me a question or you just

460
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:52.440
ask me to do it?

461
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.520
Well, I got someone that I basically delegated. So,

462
00:24:56.520 --> 00:25:03.490
got someone else to ask the question. No, a delicate balance between aggressive

463
00:25:03.490 --> 00:25:04.440
architecture, I like

464
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:21.400
that. Yeah. And... Yeah. I think that, I think the issue I have with all of

465
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:22.760
these policies that

466
00:25:22.760 --> 00:25:26.350
you can put in place, either through design or through management of places,

467
00:25:26.350 --> 00:25:28.200
just assume that

468
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:33.110
there are people who will live in a place who are nice, and there are other

469
00:25:33.110 --> 00:25:34.040
people who will come

470
00:25:34.040 --> 00:25:38.580
to that place who are not nice, who shouldn't be there, and then you've got to

471
00:25:38.580 --> 00:25:39.160
ask, well, where

472
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:44.920
should they be, and why are the people who live there the only nice people, and

473
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:46.760
it just immediately

474
00:25:46.760 --> 00:25:51.520
breaks people down into bad and good, and you've got to legislate and design

475
00:25:51.520 --> 00:25:52.440
out the bad and

476
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:58.590
protect the good. And in my business, that too often gets broken down into

477
00:25:58.590 --> 00:25:59.160
people who've got lots

478
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.400
of money at the good people, and people who've got no money at the bad people.

479
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:04.680
And that's pretty

480
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:09.240
standard in my business, that that's the way that that breaks down. Somebody

481
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:10.440
who mentioned Jane

482
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:13.890
Jacobs, somebody mentioned Jane Jacobs, I think the lady who was on the

483
00:26:13.890 --> 00:26:17.000
recording, Jane Jacobs is

484
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:23.550
my hero. And if you don't know, she is, she was a campaigner who lived in New

485
00:26:23.550 --> 00:26:26.040
York, wrote a series

486
00:26:26.040 --> 00:26:31.870
of amazing books in the 60s and 70s, and she sort of invented citizen action.

487
00:26:31.870 --> 00:26:33.640
She

488
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.970
fought a campaign, two campaigns actually, in lower Manhattan to stop and

489
00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:37.960
expressway going

490
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.400
through the city, and then she stopped Washington Square being pulled down in

491
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.680
the north to south

492
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:46.950
expressway going down through south of Manhattan. And she had this phrase

493
00:26:46.950 --> 00:26:47.800
called "Eyes on the

494
00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:52.190
Street," which became her kind of catchphrase, and that was about, not about

495
00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:53.000
necessarily

496
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:57.480
specifically designing things that make places safe, but relying on people in

497
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:58.280
communities to

498
00:26:58.280 --> 00:27:01.520
make places safe. So people looking out for each other, looking after each

499
00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:02.200
other, and the

500
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:05.530
eyes, what she meant by "Eyes on the Street," was designing things so that

501
00:27:05.530 --> 00:27:06.520
people were on the

502
00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:10.500
streets. They weren't separated from the streets, living upstairs and in

503
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.480
buildings around the

504
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.000
corner. They were living and working and looking and communicating and talking

505
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:15.560
to each other on

506
00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:19.220
the streets. And that's something that inspires me every day, is about how you

507
00:27:19.220 --> 00:27:20.280
create places where

508
00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:25.400
naturally there are lots of people outside in a place doing things together

509
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.400
that it's in itself

510
00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:31.480
mitigates against people behaving badly, because it's sort of self-policing,

511
00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:32.520
and I think that's

512
00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:36.350
fascinating how you might imagine a project where you take the police out of

513
00:27:36.350 --> 00:27:37.880
London, and that's not

514
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.480
because they take them away, because they're bad for people, take them away,

515
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:42.600
because there's a

516
00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:47.440
replacement process that keeps people safe. And I think that's about designing

517
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.000
places as a whole

518
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.560
to make people feel that they can control the places where they live and work.

519
00:27:53.560 --> 00:27:57.640
Yeah, but this might be an opportunity moment to come back to you,

520
00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:03.320
just about perhaps referencing some of the, I mean I love the exchange square

521
00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:04.040
project in

522
00:28:04.040 --> 00:28:09.800
terms of the city of London, you can't move for jilay's right, and generally it

523
00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:10.440
's quite

524
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:15.960
kind of a one-sided demographic to some extent, but how do you make it, that's

525
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:16.760
a good example of

526
00:28:16.760 --> 00:28:20.520
making spaces more inclusive, so perhaps with reference to that, or a project

527
00:28:20.520 --> 00:28:21.080
of your choice

528
00:28:21.080 --> 00:28:28.200
might be a way to kind of further the conversation. Yeah, so I suppose if you

529
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:29.400
build on this idea of

530
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:34.750
what is a space post-policing, and it is one that's self-policing, but in order

531
00:28:34.750 --> 00:28:35.400
to get to that

532
00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:39.280
point you have to do a lot of dismantling just to talk about the post-policing

533
00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:40.200
aspect of it.

534
00:28:41.320 --> 00:28:47.400
One of the things as designers we all get involved in is this thorny question

535
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:48.200
of privately owned

536
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:55.520
public space, is that worse, is it better? Well let's face it, 99% of London

537
00:28:55.520 --> 00:28:56.760
public spaces are

538
00:28:56.760 --> 00:29:01.000
pretty much privately owned, it is extraordinary when you look below the ground

539
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:02.840
and see the legislative

540
00:29:02.840 --> 00:29:07.100
undercroft of it, but I think some places are kind of self-policing like

541
00:29:07.100 --> 00:29:08.680
exchange square used to be,

542
00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:13.720
exchange square is the piece of land that has been built over Liverpool Street

543
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:14.440
Station, so if you're

544
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:19.330
getting a platform, you're on platform 9 going off to Norfolk or going to Essex

545
00:29:19.330 --> 00:29:20.360
, you will see there's

546
00:29:20.360 --> 00:29:25.850
a park over the top of it, and that used to be just a concrete and stone kind

547
00:29:25.850 --> 00:29:27.880
of 1980s public space

548
00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:31.680
with a little sort of strip of grass in it, and it was kind of self-policing

549
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:32.840
because nobody felt

550
00:29:32.840 --> 00:29:36.420
welcome, there weren't any signs say don't go in, it was just you got there and

551
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:37.080
you felt really

552
00:29:37.080 --> 00:29:41.510
uncomfortable if you weren't a banker basically, and I could put another word

553
00:29:41.510 --> 00:29:42.760
next to that but I won't,

554
00:29:42.760 --> 00:29:48.520
but it was, and we got the job because we went for an interview and they said

555
00:29:48.520 --> 00:29:48.920
oh we're really

556
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:52.020
interested in your research, you do this interesting landscape research in your

557
00:29:52.020 --> 00:29:52.520
architects,

558
00:29:52.520 --> 00:29:58.570
would you look at exchange square and we basically said well I said well we

559
00:29:58.570 --> 00:29:59.400
wouldn't be seen dead

560
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.530
there, you know, and so that was, we sort of took it from this idea that we

561
00:30:03.530 --> 00:30:04.840
felt utterly excluded

562
00:30:04.840 --> 00:30:08.740
from it and didn't want to be part of it, and tried to follow, what's your name

563
00:30:08.740 --> 00:30:09.080
again,

564
00:30:09.080 --> 00:30:13.850
lady, Santa just nailed it so quickly, I don't know if you heard us say, you

565
00:30:13.850 --> 00:30:15.080
create a public space,

566
00:30:15.080 --> 00:30:19.000
which is not one public space, it's a range of offerings, but lots of different

567
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:19.880
people to happily

568
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:25.540
coexist at the same time, and you do that by talking to absolutely loads of

569
00:30:25.540 --> 00:30:26.840
people to find out

570
00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:34.440
what loads of people want, which is what I think Sarah said, and then you bring

571
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:35.160
a bit of mystery

572
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:38.760
and wonder, so you kind of, on exchange square you riff off the fact you're

573
00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:40.520
floating over a live railway

574
00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:44.060
line, so if you go there between eight and nine in the morning there is a

575
00:30:44.060 --> 00:30:46.280
mystical steam engine

576
00:30:46.280 --> 00:30:49.380
that goes through the space, steam rises through the space, but most

577
00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:50.600
importantly it's got a water

578
00:30:50.600 --> 00:30:55.570
feature and all the mums and dads bring their kids there, and so on the weekend

579
00:30:55.570 --> 00:30:56.360
it's a public

580
00:30:56.360 --> 00:31:01.800
park, during the week it's a place where many different people from in the city

581
00:31:01.800 --> 00:31:02.760
and Hackney

582
00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:07.240
and Tower Hamlets come over and use it to what their dogs, etc, it's become a

583
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:08.440
piece of city,

584
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:13.380
and the great thing is the client who are developers as well, like Martin, at

585
00:31:13.380 --> 00:31:14.120
the beginning they

586
00:31:14.120 --> 00:31:18.790
were like how can we program it, we want food trucks, we want events, we want

587
00:31:18.790 --> 00:31:19.880
music, we want

588
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:24.310
the ice skating, we want Christmas, and now they're like actually we agree with

589
00:31:24.310 --> 00:31:25.240
you, all we want is

590
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:29.400
the gardener, and that's all they've got, so I think it's following,

591
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:37.240
Santa's brilliant suggestion earlier, but it is really sort of be more, be as

592
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:38.120
maximise your

593
00:31:38.120 --> 00:31:42.520
inclusivity and work to the extremes is our motto, always work to the extremes,

594
00:31:42.520 --> 00:31:43.080
it's completely

595
00:31:43.080 --> 00:31:50.700
accessible now to those who need it, it wasn't before, it's open 24 hours,

596
00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:51.800
there are no security

597
00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:57.330
men telling you not to be there, so it kind of works. Brilliant, thank you, I

598
00:31:57.330 --> 00:31:57.960
didn't admit that,

599
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:03.400
and there are no police officers. I think we should have probably invited some,

600
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:05.160
so yeah, maybe next

601
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.810
time, so from the city of London to the mean streets of Tottenham, I think

602
00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:11.720
might be a useful way to go,

603
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:17.120
I tell you what was really interesting was I went to the Beyonce concert last

604
00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:18.440
year, it was fabulous,

605
00:32:19.080 --> 00:32:25.890
was covered in glitter, yeah right, so yeah I went into my football local pub

606
00:32:25.890 --> 00:32:26.360
on Tottenham

607
00:32:26.360 --> 00:32:31.150
High Road which normally is like, we've got to match on, and it was, which I

608
00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:31.960
kind of like,

609
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:36.920
but it was FA Cup final day, and I was like okay I can check out, this is going

610
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:37.720
somewhere I promise,

611
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:42.230
so you know it was FA Cup final day, oh they'll stick the match on, and they

612
00:32:42.230 --> 00:32:42.600
were like, and then

613
00:32:42.600 --> 00:32:46.240
they had the pictures on, and I was like can you put the sound on, they were

614
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:46.680
like no,

615
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:49.960
we've got a Beyonce playlist, we're not stick, we're not deviating from it, and

616
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:51.000
it was so different

617
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:54.780
to have a really blokey pub, you know, well I want to, it's yeah it's on the

618
00:32:54.780 --> 00:32:55.240
high road, you know,

619
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.960
there's blasting out, there are loads of blokes, you know, all in there blue,

620
00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:58.600
one more jacket,

621
00:32:58.600 --> 00:33:06.360
jeans up, and for Beyonce concert day, it was Women, and LGBTQ+ community,

622
00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:07.800
representing cowboy

623
00:33:07.800 --> 00:33:12.600
hats, everyone in silver, and it was a takeover, and it was so fabulous to see,

624
00:33:12.600 --> 00:33:13.720
not just you know,

625
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:18.440
the two and a half hours that Beyonce was on stage, but actually the whole day

626
00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:19.960
really transformed

627
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:25.840
the area, and it felt, when you came out of the stadium, more importantly there

628
00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:26.920
was, you know,

629
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:31.000
Destiny's Char Blaring from here, there was, you know, a whole, you know, it

630
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:32.120
felt like Beyonce

631
00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:34.960
Land for a little bit, but actually most importantly it felt like, and it

632
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:36.120
shouldn't feel like we have

633
00:33:36.120 --> 00:33:40.320
permission to go down the high road, and we feel safe at night, but actually we

634
00:33:40.320 --> 00:33:41.000
did, and there was

635
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:46.470
a huge army of, basically not heteromanne taking over that area, so yeah I

636
00:33:46.470 --> 00:33:47.960
guess my point is probably

637
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:50.990
like, you know, can you talk through one of your projects in that area after

638
00:33:50.990 --> 00:33:52.440
that huge intro,

639
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:56.860
but I think that's, you know, it's an area where people, you know, I feel a

640
00:33:56.860 --> 00:33:57.880
little bit, you know,

641
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.880
oh god can I go from, you know, Bruce Grove station, I actually gave up being

642
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.120
in a choir,

643
00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:09.510
because I didn't feel safe from going from the choir in the school to the bus

644
00:34:09.510 --> 00:34:10.840
stop, because every

645
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:14.860
single time I went now I got cat called, so I basically gave up an activity

646
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:15.480
because it didn't

647
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.750
feel safe and safe in the urban realm, how awful is that in whenever it was

648
00:34:19.750 --> 00:34:21.720
2022, dreadful, so,

649
00:34:21.720 --> 00:34:27.420
you know, what can we do, what's going on up there? Yeah, yeah there's

650
00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:28.680
something in the air as well

651
00:34:28.680 --> 00:34:32.610
on football days, like sometimes, sometimes when I lived in Newcastle as well,

652
00:34:32.610 --> 00:34:33.640
similar like I could

653
00:34:33.640 --> 00:34:38.280
tell if Newcastle had lost, like the air was aggy, I was like what's going on,

654
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.080
and even the little

655
00:34:39.080 --> 00:34:44.440
lads would be like, ball ball ball down the street, and yeah, just thinking

656
00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:45.160
about what you were saying

657
00:34:45.160 --> 00:34:49.420
about Beyonce, I think sometimes like, it reminds me of the Barbie movie, like

658
00:34:49.420 --> 00:34:51.320
people forget when

659
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:56.230
you like collectively call women the power, we will come out in like our dros,

660
00:34:56.230 --> 00:34:57.320
girls, gays, and

661
00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:02.490
vase are just like let's come together and take over a space, so I think that

662
00:35:02.490 --> 00:35:03.880
could be a really

663
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:09.940
interesting like power to harness somehow more within public space, and yeah, I

664
00:35:09.940 --> 00:35:10.600
've done a couple

665
00:35:10.600 --> 00:35:16.920
of projects in Tottenham specifically, I did one called Girls of the Light, and

666
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:18.840
that project was from

667
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.360
a similar experience to you when I was coming home from my studio to my house,

668
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:23.000
I always made a

669
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:27.130
decision shall I go the long way or the dark way, and I was like way up how

670
00:35:27.130 --> 00:35:28.360
brave I'm feeling that

671
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:34.290
night, and so I ended up doing these sort of projections in different spaces,

672
00:35:34.290 --> 00:35:36.520
and I did a,

673
00:35:36.520 --> 00:35:42.550
I asked on Instagram for people to submit spaces that they didn't feel safe in,

674
00:35:42.550 --> 00:35:44.520
and so I ended up

675
00:35:44.520 --> 00:35:48.330
going to all these different like alleyways and backends and stuff, and I'm

676
00:35:48.330 --> 00:35:50.920
kind of similar to

677
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.560
what this person was talking about before, that what I found really interesting

678
00:35:53.560 --> 00:35:54.600
is that I thought

679
00:35:54.600 --> 00:35:58.600
my idea behind projecting there was that the people who sort of dared to use

680
00:35:58.600 --> 00:35:59.720
that space already would

681
00:35:59.720 --> 00:36:03.430
kind of come across these projections and just be like delighted by it, but

682
00:36:03.430 --> 00:36:04.520
what happened is that

683
00:36:04.520 --> 00:36:11.920
mostly women came out in pairs at least or with friends, and they came out to

684
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:13.720
see artwork in alleyway

685
00:36:13.720 --> 00:36:19.100
so I was like this is wild, like I did not expect people to go out of their way

686
00:36:19.100 --> 00:36:19.560
to see

687
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:24.840
to go to a space that usually doesn't feel safe, but like I think there's some

688
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:25.880
sort of like safety

689
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:30.140
in numbers, or when you have the bravery maybe to try something in these

690
00:36:30.140 --> 00:36:31.640
hostile spaces, and some

691
00:36:31.640 --> 00:36:35.790
things will work and some things won't, but why don't we try, and to think

692
00:36:35.790 --> 00:36:37.240
about how you can

693
00:36:37.240 --> 00:36:43.380
transform spaces, especially ones that may be in areas that people feel maybe a

694
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:44.440
little bit more

695
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:49.840
unsafe, there are plenty of alleyways and back streets and all sorts around

696
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:51.000
London, so there's

697
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:56.470
lots of opportunity, maybe if there's a way to like harness the vibes of women

698
00:36:56.470 --> 00:36:57.560
up for a good time

699
00:36:57.560 --> 00:37:03.160
that might help in the situation. Maybe some gurleys out for a guitar, right?

700
00:37:03.160 --> 00:37:03.720
That

701
00:37:03.720 --> 00:37:08.680
neatly coming back to a conversation I had with Zara just before that, so about

702
00:37:08.680 --> 00:37:09.320
kind of taking

703
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.000
back the word gurley, which maybe it will form the basis of my question, but

704
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:14.120
what I wanted to

705
00:37:14.120 --> 00:37:18.520
talk about was the magpai project which you're involved with with women and

706
00:37:18.520 --> 00:37:19.240
children as well,

707
00:37:19.240 --> 00:37:22.780
right? So yeah, can you talk about that and maybe referencing some gurleys as

708
00:37:22.780 --> 00:37:23.240
well?

709
00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:28.730
Okay, I'm clear a crest for a girly chat. Yeah, so the magpai project I'm

710
00:37:28.730 --> 00:37:30.360
currently working with

711
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:38.050
Atmoth with the magpai project which is a charity who support refugee women and

712
00:37:38.050 --> 00:37:38.600
girls,

713
00:37:39.240 --> 00:37:45.000
and I think I'm going on on tangent, but tangents are good, that's what I'm the

714
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:45.560
granny talks

715
00:37:45.560 --> 00:37:50.520
rule about. On my point earlier about like quizzing the client, Nuhm were like,

716
00:37:50.520 --> 00:37:51.240
we don't need that

717
00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:57.760
big of a space because by 2025 we're going to have housed all the homeless or

718
00:37:57.760 --> 00:37:59.800
displaced women and

719
00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:04.760
children, refugees in Nuhm, but the most of the people who the magpai sent to

720
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:06.120
deal with are not,

721
00:38:07.080 --> 00:38:11.820
they're not residents of Nuhm, but you have to live somewhere for so long to be

722
00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:12.840
able to claim

723
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:19.170
on the house register or whatever. So they are providing spaces for people that

724
00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:19.960
nobody else is

725
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:23.650
providing for, people who come from outside of Nuhm. Anyway, the magpai project

726
00:38:23.650 --> 00:38:24.200
is an amazing

727
00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:28.140
project, Jane Williams runs it, please support them, please donate, and they

728
00:38:28.140 --> 00:38:30.040
really have that value of

729
00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:39.810
their mums and minis as they put it to have what we have not to have our casts

730
00:38:39.810 --> 00:38:41.560
off, and really

731
00:38:41.560 --> 00:38:47.150
they've got a new campaign called A Kitchen for Every Mum or something close to

732
00:38:47.150 --> 00:38:47.880
that, sorry,

733
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:53.080
that was really poor. But anyway, we're working on their new children's centre

734
00:38:53.080 --> 00:38:53.400
and sort of

735
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:56.230
transforming space to that, but just working with Nuhm has been really

736
00:38:56.230 --> 00:38:57.400
interesting to sort of like

737
00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.330
their perception of what magpai are doing and actually the scope of what magpai

738
00:39:00.330 --> 00:39:01.240
is doing is

739
00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:08.100
above and beyond. And you wanted me to talk about girly? Oh, I don't know, I

740
00:39:08.100 --> 00:39:08.760
think, you know,

741
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.960
that's all part of the conversation, right? Yeah, I actually had just like a

742
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:13.480
few sort of

743
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:16.390
things I was thinking about as everyone was talking, and sort of Martin was

744
00:39:16.390 --> 00:39:17.480
saying about like spaces

745
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:20.980
that people feel they can control, but I actually feel like it's like spaces

746
00:39:20.980 --> 00:39:21.720
where they can be a

747
00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:27.770
bit disorderly, like where, what is the space you can control? It like actually

748
00:39:27.770 --> 00:39:28.440
, and I mean,

749
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:32.220
that's like the police issue, isn't it? When the police are there looking down,

750
00:39:32.220 --> 00:39:33.000
like, oh, when you

751
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:38.820
go to CSM and all the security guards, you know, when you sit outside on the

752
00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:39.960
canal and you just

753
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:43.300
feel like you're being watched, I don't want a space which I feel I can control

754
00:39:43.300 --> 00:39:45.240
, I kind of do want,

755
00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:51.260
it's like we talk about children, who's only right in front of me, and I'm risk

756
00:39:51.260 --> 00:39:51.800
, you know,

757
00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:55.990
actually there's this book written by Elizabeth Wilson called The Sphinx and

758
00:39:55.990 --> 00:39:56.920
the City, and she

759
00:39:56.920 --> 00:40:02.050
talks about how women, because we are not, we've always been controlled, we're

760
00:40:02.050 --> 00:40:02.760
more open

761
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:08.330
to a little bit more subversion, and maybe that's a good thing, and it was

762
00:40:08.330 --> 00:40:09.720
funny that Deborah talked

763
00:40:09.720 --> 00:40:14.200
about fountains because the, someone told me yesterday that fountains are used,

764
00:40:14.200 --> 00:40:15.640
like in Shfauver Square,

765
00:40:15.640 --> 00:40:20.160
outside Tentra St Martin's, to stop people protesting. I hadn't even thought

766
00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:21.000
about that,

767
00:40:21.640 --> 00:40:25.740
and so then I was like, oh, so I thought this lovely joyful thing, later

768
00:40:25.740 --> 00:40:26.760
children, lovely,

769
00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:33.000
but it's a method of control, so how do we leave enough space for subversion?

770
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:41.040
And I think kind of, that's actually how I met Hannah, was she took this

771
00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:42.840
projector in a dust bin,

772
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:47.500
and the girls of the light, and I was like, who did you ask permission to do

773
00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:48.520
this, she's like no one.

774
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:55.800
And I just think we need a little bit of space for that, for unprogrammed, for

775
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:57.400
even

776
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:06.120
sort of the idea, yeah, fountains then being like a blocker, and you said about

777
00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:06.120
the

778
00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:10.680
secure by design, and we have issues with this, but then actually it's like

779
00:41:10.680 --> 00:41:11.160
maybe you don't

780
00:41:11.160 --> 00:41:13.720
put a bench, but maybe you put a curve there that's just about high enough for

781
00:41:13.720 --> 00:41:14.520
someone to sit on.

782
00:41:14.520 --> 00:41:18.760
How about designing something which someone could skate on, but it looks like

783
00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:23.720
a planter, you know, we need to be a little bit more subversive in the way that

784
00:41:23.720 --> 00:41:25.240
we design rather than

785
00:41:25.240 --> 00:41:29.270
this is safe for these people, this is safe for that people, and Hannah used

786
00:41:29.270 --> 00:41:30.760
the word transforming,

787
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:35.990
and I used that a lot at the beginning of my PhD, and I'm like, what are we

788
00:41:35.990 --> 00:41:37.880
actually trying to do?

789
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:42.640
I don't know if we can really change stuff, what does transforming mean,

790
00:41:42.640 --> 00:41:44.360
expanding, taking up,

791
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:51.160
taking over, and I think that's what actually Magpie do really well, is they're

792
00:41:51.160 --> 00:41:51.960
like really

793
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:58.200
bold in their statement, they use, they actively use different sort of streams

794
00:41:58.200 --> 00:41:59.240
of income as well

795
00:41:59.240 --> 00:42:05.080
in a sort of quite dominant manner, and I've been running this running series

796
00:42:05.080 --> 00:42:05.880
called Taking Space,

797
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:12.750
which is literally about women taking up space, and running without permission,

798
00:42:12.750 --> 00:42:13.480
and I think it's,

799
00:42:14.120 --> 00:42:16.840
it's actually about being disorderly, not about being safe.

800
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:25.910
Sounds good. Martin, disorderly, disruptive, subversion, not really kind of,

801
00:42:25.910 --> 00:42:26.200
you know,

802
00:42:26.200 --> 00:42:28.990
allowing people to be, you know, slightly unpredictable, that doesn't sound

803
00:42:28.990 --> 00:42:30.600
like a developer's dream to me.

804
00:42:30.600 --> 00:42:36.110
Well, I think what I meant by control is people who own the space, the

805
00:42:36.110 --> 00:42:37.320
community who own the space

806
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.710
is feeling in control of them, so they can do what they like, not being

807
00:42:40.710 --> 00:42:41.960
controlled by somebody

808
00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:46.120
that's not part of that community, which is I think what you were talking about

809
00:42:46.120 --> 00:42:46.600
, but what you were

810
00:42:46.600 --> 00:42:51.430
talking about. I just want to say something about the fear of real danger and

811
00:42:51.430 --> 00:42:52.680
the fear of imagined

812
00:42:52.680 --> 00:42:56.540
danger, because those two things quite different. In West London, I'm working

813
00:42:56.540 --> 00:42:57.480
in a town where the

814
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.520
council just did a survey of why people aren't using the town centre, and they

815
00:43:01.520 --> 00:43:02.440
thought the people

816
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:04.640
aren't using the, and they found out that people aren't using the town centre,

817
00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:05.640
because they're scared

818
00:43:05.640 --> 00:43:08.740
to go to the town centre in the evening when it's dark, because they'll get

819
00:43:08.740 --> 00:43:09.800
robbed or beaten or

820
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:16.120
get attacked. The actual level of crime is very low for that part of London,

821
00:43:16.120 --> 00:43:16.680
and so there were,

822
00:43:16.680 --> 00:43:20.150
they discovered there was a real difference between people's perception of

823
00:43:20.150 --> 00:43:21.960
danger and the real danger

824
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:24.390
they were in, and the real reason why people don't want to go to the town

825
00:43:24.390 --> 00:43:25.160
centre is because

826
00:43:25.160 --> 00:43:28.560
there's nobody there, because there's nothing happening in that town centre in

827
00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:29.160
the evening that

828
00:43:29.160 --> 00:43:32.160
means it's lively and there are people and they're out and they're in the

829
00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:33.160
street and they're doing

830
00:43:33.160 --> 00:43:41.640
things and it feels safe. Safety in numbers is not a dumb thesis. So I think we

831
00:43:41.640 --> 00:43:42.440
have to be careful

832
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:46.760
to understand where there is real danger, and that has one particular set of

833
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:47.640
actions that can

834
00:43:47.640 --> 00:43:53.230
solve it, and where people are afraid of a perception of danger, where we can

835
00:43:53.230 --> 00:43:55.000
then design to change

836
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.320
that. So I think it's about, I just want to leave with that thought about real

837
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:00.440
and imagined, real

838
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:04.200
and perceived danger. Interesting, I'm going to take a little bit of a gear

839
00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:05.160
shift now, and I'm

840
00:44:05.160 --> 00:44:08.120
going to come to Deborah for this particular question, but I'm going to, I'm

841
00:44:08.120 --> 00:44:08.520
going to

842
00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:14.270
pre-see a little bit so anyway. So we've got, we're in London, but also when I

843
00:44:14.270 --> 00:44:15.320
was writing a

844
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.250
feature about women's safety and inclusivity in public spaces, one of the

845
00:44:19.250 --> 00:44:20.280
cities that came to

846
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:28.190
mind was Vienna. And the secret to Vienna's success was, turns out, don't just

847
00:44:28.190 --> 00:44:29.000
employ

848
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:33.640
straight white men to have them, you know, implement the planning policy and

849
00:44:33.640 --> 00:44:34.840
make the decisions.

850
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.960
Who knew that could be successful? Well, turns out Vienna is incredibly

851
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:39.480
successful and has had

852
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:44.760
quite a long time implemented a range of measures, everything from, you know,

853
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:46.040
curb heights being

854
00:44:46.040 --> 00:44:50.440
at the right, you know, being appropriate for push chairs to, you know, really

855
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:51.320
high level thinking

856
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:57.070
in terms of making the city safer for all. So, Deborah, you've talked about

857
00:44:57.070 --> 00:44:57.960
embedding

858
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:04.360
EDI into policy. So, you know, that, you know, diversity and inclusion piece.

859
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:05.080
So can you talk a

860
00:45:05.080 --> 00:45:08.080
little bit more about that and why that's so important when this particular

861
00:45:08.080 --> 00:45:08.520
topic?

862
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:16.520
Oh, now where do I start on this one? I can be a nice meaty question.

863
00:45:16.520 --> 00:45:26.190
Well, I think it's, I think the embedding equality, diversity and inclusion

864
00:45:26.190 --> 00:45:27.320
into policy

865
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:32.600
is a really good lens. I mean, as a designer, you're, you're, you're,

866
00:45:32.600 --> 00:45:37.460
or and as a citizen, you're looking through various lenses and when it comes to

867
00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:37.800
making

868
00:45:38.520 --> 00:45:43.080
the built environment policy is obviously an important framework. So I think

869
00:45:43.080 --> 00:45:43.720
the work that

870
00:45:43.720 --> 00:45:50.680
the GLA have been doing in particular on their little tiny report for making

871
00:45:50.680 --> 00:45:51.640
space for women and

872
00:45:51.640 --> 00:45:56.500
girls that they've done is really excellent. And it actually runs alongside

873
00:45:56.500 --> 00:45:57.960
another campaigning

874
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:04.000
body called making space for girls, which also is suggesting that we change the

875
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:04.280
lens

876
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:09.770
through which we look at things. And the simplest example I can give to you of

877
00:46:09.770 --> 00:46:10.600
where I've personally

878
00:46:10.600 --> 00:46:19.000
confronted it, my own preconceptions is I designed a mugger 15 years ago in vox

879
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:20.120
el pleasure gardens.

880
00:46:20.120 --> 00:46:29.320
That is a multi-use games area. And we, we took the money and we were told we

881
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:29.640
had this

882
00:46:29.640 --> 00:46:34.680
amount of money from sport England to put in a mugger. And I said, do they, uh,

883
00:46:34.680 --> 00:46:38.600
rifting on the muff, uh, make it, you know, make it up as you go along and don

884
00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:39.720
't ask permission?

885
00:46:39.720 --> 00:46:44.840
We basically put in a really tiny mugger and nobody noticed. And with the rest

886
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:45.400
of the money,

887
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:50.680
we spent it on a really lovely public space next to it. So that subliminally,

888
00:46:50.680 --> 00:46:55.780
we were making a space not just for sport, but for other things to go on roll

889
00:46:55.780 --> 00:46:57.480
on 15 years later,

890
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:02.410
it's next to Kings Cross, a Houston and St Pancras where we're doing a lovely

891
00:47:02.410 --> 00:47:03.320
park. Anne is here.

892
00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:07.190
She's the project architect over there. I am associate. I should say project

893
00:47:07.190 --> 00:47:08.520
associate. And

894
00:47:08.520 --> 00:47:14.370
we'd done a master plan about 50 years ago, like an urban frame about 15 years

895
00:47:14.370 --> 00:47:15.240
ago. And finally,

896
00:47:15.240 --> 00:47:18.660
we're going to build the mugger. And it was brilliant because Camden said, um,

897
00:47:18.660 --> 00:47:18.760
actually,

898
00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:24.050
we've got a new policy to sort of challenge what a mugger is because let's face

899
00:47:24.050 --> 00:47:24.440
it,

900
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:28.280
only about 25% of the population, if that will even go in a mugger,

901
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:33.540
because it's assumed that your mail, it's assumed that your mail only lights

902
00:47:33.540 --> 00:47:33.960
sport.

903
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.720
And it's assumed that you're organized enough to get a team together because

904
00:47:37.720 --> 00:47:41.460
they're not really sort of places to hang out on your own. Anyway, long story

905
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:42.760
short, we, we,

906
00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:47.130
because of the really great work that Camden are doing, we've now got edit,

907
00:47:47.130 --> 00:47:48.040
edit collective

908
00:47:48.040 --> 00:47:52.810
working with us, we're edit as they're known now, uh, make looking, working

909
00:47:52.810 --> 00:47:54.360
with local young people

910
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:59.160
in particular, those people who don't play sport all the time to design a whole

911
00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:00.120
new landscape

912
00:48:00.120 --> 00:48:05.480
at the base of this tower that's part of the scheme. And it really is about

913
00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:06.760
putting on a different

914
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:10.510
set of lenses into your goggles through which you're looking at the world. And

915
00:48:10.510 --> 00:48:11.560
we've got spaces

916
00:48:11.560 --> 00:48:15.880
for that the young people have told us about. They want spaces for two of them

917
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:16.360
to talk,

918
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:21.380
four of them to talk, a whole gaggle of them to flirt with each other, but not

919
00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:22.200
be too close to

920
00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:27.560
each other. And so I think what's really brilliant is it does prompt all of us,

921
00:48:27.560 --> 00:48:33.040
irrespective of how woke we think we are, to, you know, double check. It's a

922
00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:34.200
really good checklist.

923
00:48:34.200 --> 00:48:38.840
Anyway, that was really waffling. Sorry. No, that was good. That was good. So

924
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:39.720
we've, I think,

925
00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:45.570
just popped over the hour, which is great. And so let's have some opinions from

926
00:48:45.570 --> 00:48:47.000
the floor. Ah, lady.

927
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:54.690
And the red jumper. Hi. By the way, just wanted, first of all, to say a shout

928
00:48:54.690 --> 00:48:56.680
out for the fountains

929
00:48:56.680 --> 00:49:02.860
in Granary Square, my five-year-old granddaughter. She loves being

930
00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:06.840
disrespectful, disgraceful.

931
00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:13.480
She plays there with 100 kids. None of them have their clothes on. All of them

932
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:14.440
making a heck of a

933
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:18.970
din. So I just, just wanted to say, I don't really mind if it was there to

934
00:49:18.970 --> 00:49:20.280
control people.

935
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:23.640
Yeah, yeah, it's a karate.

936
00:49:23.640 --> 00:49:41.220
It's joyful. I promise you. Even them in the middle of winter. So anyway, even

937
00:49:41.220 --> 00:49:42.440
if it's accidental.

938
00:49:43.640 --> 00:49:48.130
I just wanted to, just wanted to touch on a common denominator. My name's

939
00:49:48.130 --> 00:49:50.200
Claire, Richard's I'm an

940
00:49:50.200 --> 00:49:54.700
architect, which I need to say because I'm going to be mildly provocative

941
00:49:54.700 --> 00:49:56.200
because there's an under

942
00:49:56.200 --> 00:50:03.980
current here around listening, around how people feel in the spaces we're

943
00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:06.600
talking about, you know,

944
00:50:06.600 --> 00:50:11.180
who's going to use the mugger? I really got into who's going to use the mugger

945
00:50:11.180 --> 00:50:11.800
and how you're going

946
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:14.760
to make the mugger. So more than 25% of people use it.

947
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:22.600
But we're talking about how people feel. We're talking much less about, okay,

948
00:50:22.600 --> 00:50:23.320
let's get rid of

949
00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:30.700
the designers and let's get the people who we think we know what they feel to

950
00:50:30.700 --> 00:50:32.040
do it themselves.

951
00:50:32.040 --> 00:50:36.700
And we've talked a bit on that around that. And I think that's a really

952
00:50:36.700 --> 00:50:38.280
important common

953
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:47.140
denominator. So we have, I work with footwork, we are a social change charity,

954
00:50:47.140 --> 00:50:49.000
and we fund and

955
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:55.830
provide support to ordinary local citizens who spy a problem, which might be to

956
00:50:55.830 --> 00:50:56.840
do with safety

957
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:04.440
in their own community. They have a really good idea how to resolve it. They're

958
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.680
great at galvanizing

959
00:51:06.680 --> 00:51:15.150
their communities. And they are unbelievably motivated and I'm afraid that as

960
00:51:15.150 --> 00:51:16.200
designers,

961
00:51:16.200 --> 00:51:22.760
nine times out of 10, for that to be successful, were not needed. So I just

962
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:23.160
wanted to...

963
00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:29.430
Oh, got, oh, or the accounts are arguing with that, so yeah, because it's, I

964
00:51:29.430 --> 00:51:30.760
work in a university,

965
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:34.050
I don't really want to say which one, because it's, but critical about the

966
00:51:34.050 --> 00:51:34.840
teaching, and I think

967
00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:38.250
it's a general pattern. I went to the diversity and architecture event at the R

968
00:51:38.250 --> 00:51:38.520
BA,

969
00:51:38.520 --> 00:51:46.300
I think it's a week before last, and I mean, they're static in AJS. 80% of the

970
00:51:46.300 --> 00:51:46.680
architecture

971
00:51:46.680 --> 00:51:50.520
profession is white and male and middle class. I mean, it's not actually that

972
00:51:50.520 --> 00:51:50.840
you need the

973
00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:55.070
community, you need the community in the profession, and my students are the

974
00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:55.720
community,

975
00:51:55.720 --> 00:52:00.290
and they really didn't know that. So they're not told that their experience is

976
00:52:00.290 --> 00:52:01.240
important,

977
00:52:01.240 --> 00:52:05.000
they don't know that their experience counts, but they actually adapt to what's

978
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:05.880
expected from them.

979
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:10.120
So I'm not actually criticizing the tutors because we have amazing tutors, but

980
00:52:10.120 --> 00:52:11.080
I mean,

981
00:52:11.080 --> 00:52:15.720
I wasn't really queued up until I really, I had to go to an anti-racist

982
00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:17.320
workshop that was done by

983
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:21.490
people working at our university. So not like somebody that you invite, and

984
00:52:21.490 --> 00:52:22.360
they speak to an

985
00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:27.490
hour about unconscious bias. And it's like, oh my God, shit, you know, I'm not

986
00:52:27.490 --> 00:52:28.200
a racist, I've

987
00:52:28.200 --> 00:52:31.550
never been a racist, but you have to become any architecture professional, the

988
00:52:31.550 --> 00:52:32.040
architecture

989
00:52:32.040 --> 00:52:36.680
teaching. It's not only about racism as well, it's about females, it's about

990
00:52:36.680 --> 00:52:40.840
autocultures, about religion, it's about disability. How many people in here

991
00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:41.160
actually

992
00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:45.640
use a C with a disability? I mean, I'm invisibility disabled, and it's not been

993
00:52:45.640 --> 00:52:46.680
talked about this.

994
00:52:46.680 --> 00:52:49.890
So I'm outraged, and there are people who spoke and said there was a 65-year-

995
00:52:49.890 --> 00:52:51.240
old person who said,

996
00:52:51.240 --> 00:52:55.360
why am I up here still talking about diversity and architecture? So I guess I

997
00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:56.520
agree, but the best

998
00:52:56.520 --> 00:53:00.150
thing would be to actually, why are the students in my university and in

999
00:53:00.150 --> 00:53:01.560
Westminster, etc. Why are

1000
00:53:01.560 --> 00:53:05.400
they not in the professions? And I think it's a bit of a harsh one, and like

1001
00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:06.600
design and architecture

1002
00:53:06.600 --> 00:53:11.500
is because it's so hard to give up what it's designed, it's taste, it's

1003
00:53:11.500 --> 00:53:12.520
personal opinion, isn't

1004
00:53:12.520 --> 00:53:16.250
it? It's about something very personal if you are the designer. It's, and it's

1005
00:53:16.250 --> 00:53:17.240
so hard to give up

1006
00:53:17.240 --> 00:53:20.910
that opinion of what's right, or what's beautiful, or what should be designed

1007
00:53:20.910 --> 00:53:22.040
as. So I think

1008
00:53:22.040 --> 00:53:26.650
this is a very difficult one, because I'm an architect as well, and yeah, I

1009
00:53:26.650 --> 00:53:27.400
worked in amazing

1010
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:31.130
practices which are actually quite diverse and at least 50% male-female. So I

1011
00:53:31.130 --> 00:53:32.440
never experienced

1012
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:36.780
apart from the disability that I didn't know about. I didn't experience, but I

1013
00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.560
'm white,

1014
00:53:37.560 --> 00:53:44.110
I'm German, so I was always, always thought of as extremely capable and on time

1015
00:53:44.110 --> 00:53:44.520
, even though I was

1016
00:53:44.520 --> 00:53:49.300
late. So that's a reverse prejudice, right? Okay, okay, feeling down for Irem

1017
00:53:49.300 --> 00:53:50.200
ainung as well,

1018
00:53:50.200 --> 00:53:53.510
so we're going to be doing the same thing. So we're going to be doing the same

1019
00:53:53.510 --> 00:53:53.800
thing,

1020
00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:57.320
so we're going to be doing the same thing. So I'm going to be doing the same

1021
00:53:57.320 --> 00:53:57.640
thing,

1022
00:53:57.640 --> 00:54:01.320
so I'm going to be doing the same thing. So I'm going to be doing the same

1023
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:01.640
thing,

1024
00:54:01.640 --> 00:54:04.640
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1025
00:54:04.640 --> 00:54:05.080
thing,

1026
00:54:05.080 --> 00:54:08.110
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1027
00:54:08.110 --> 00:54:09.080
thing,

1028
00:54:09.080 --> 00:54:12.070
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1029
00:54:12.070 --> 00:54:12.920
thing,

1030
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:15.370
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1031
00:54:15.370 --> 00:54:16.920
thing,

1032
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:21.050
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1033
00:54:21.050 --> 00:54:21.560
thing,

1034
00:54:21.560 --> 00:54:26.180
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1035
00:54:26.180 --> 00:54:26.840
thing,

1036
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:31.160
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1037
00:54:31.160 --> 00:54:31.800
thing,

1038
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.840
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1039
00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:35.720
thing,

1040
00:54:35.720 --> 00:54:39.230
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1041
00:54:39.230 --> 00:54:39.720
thing,

1042
00:54:39.720 --> 00:54:43.310
so I'm going to be doing the same thing, so I'm going to be doing the same

1043
00:54:43.310 --> 00:54:43.720
thing,

1044
00:54:43.720 --> 00:54:47.810
in fact if you read her stuff again you realize that she absolutely hates

1045
00:54:47.810 --> 00:54:48.520
housing estates,

1046
00:54:48.520 --> 00:54:52.360
she hates motorways but she also hates housing estates, she hates them because

1047
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:52.920
she thinks they're

1048
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:57.000
just full of criminal teenagers behaving badly and she hates parks as well

1049
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:58.040
because they're also full

1050
00:54:58.040 --> 00:55:01.640
of children behaving badly, and there's a kind of subtext here which is that

1051
00:55:01.640 --> 00:55:03.000
like there's a way we

1052
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:07.890
should be behaving, that I know what that is and it's my way, and I know how to

1053
00:55:07.890 --> 00:55:09.480
civilise the population

1054
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:12.580
by keeping an eye on them, and I think when you talk to people which I do a lot

1055
00:55:12.580 --> 00:55:13.240
of and have for

1056
00:55:13.240 --> 00:55:17.960
the book and also for the work that we do, they're not talking about this kind

1057
00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:18.760
of eyes on the street,

1058
00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:23.020
they're talking about their relationship with the people that they know and the

1059
00:55:23.020 --> 00:55:23.800
bonds that they want

1060
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:30.230
to build, and I think we should be mindful of sorry Martin for challenging this

1061
00:55:30.230 --> 00:55:31.320
, and also Farrah

1062
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:35.100
for speaking really well, and I think I know Farrah when she kind of name

1063
00:55:35.100 --> 00:55:37.400
checked me, and I think

1064
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:41.460
actually the stuff that she talks about sometimes challenges us, she was

1065
00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:42.920
talking about it like coming

1066
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:46.770
over to our side as urbanists and architects, but actually she says some really

1067
00:55:46.770 --> 00:55:47.880
interesting things

1068
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:53.870
about how we need to think differently about training and inclusivity, and I

1069
00:55:53.870 --> 00:55:55.640
think you're right,

1070
00:55:55.640 --> 00:56:00.480
Sarah, this idea that we can't just accept everything at face value, the fount

1071
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:01.000
ains,

1072
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:06.570
we're working with a group in Ellscourt who are really diverse, and one of them

1073
00:56:06.570 --> 00:56:07.080
said,

1074
00:56:07.640 --> 00:56:12.840
I think a safe space is somewhere where I feel comfortable being silly, I'm not

1075
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:13.640
going to describe

1076
00:56:13.640 --> 00:56:18.290
that person's characteristics because I think that's a bit exploitative, but I

1077
00:56:18.290 --> 00:56:19.640
think those phrases are

1078
00:56:19.640 --> 00:56:23.210
really helpful in terms of thinking about what it is that for some people who

1079
00:56:23.210 --> 00:56:24.200
you might describe

1080
00:56:24.200 --> 00:56:29.470
as vulnerable, they want to feel like they can do something subversive, and I

1081
00:56:29.470 --> 00:56:30.360
think for a lot of

1082
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:35.030
us women and people who don't always feel safe, being subversive is something

1083
00:56:35.030 --> 00:56:36.040
that you do when you

1084
00:56:36.040 --> 00:56:40.070
feel really really safe and comfortable, and you were talking about that, Beyon

1085
00:56:40.070 --> 00:56:40.760
ce, and it's about

1086
00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:46.040
safety in numbers, and I do think you're right Claire, about how we think about

1087
00:56:46.040 --> 00:56:48.040
like is this any

1088
00:56:48.040 --> 00:56:51.820
of this to do with design, you were saying this before Deborah weren't you like

1089
00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:52.760
is it even about

1090
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:55.820
design, is it about our relationship with other people, so how can our

1091
00:56:55.820 --> 00:56:57.560
architecture foster the

1092
00:56:57.560 --> 00:57:01.760
kinds of relationships with other people, and I think where I've ended with

1093
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:02.520
some of the work we've

1094
00:57:02.520 --> 00:57:08.360
got is that there is not one answer, and I have another issue, I've got so many

1095
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:09.000
issues, you all

1096
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:12.530
know I've got so many issues, I've got issues with, I'm not going to name it,

1097
00:57:12.530 --> 00:57:13.240
but the whole

1098
00:57:13.240 --> 00:57:16.430
anti-muga thing, because I think there's a lot of girls who really do like

1099
00:57:16.430 --> 00:57:17.400
playing football and

1100
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:20.900
we've forgotten about them and they're winning the World Cup a lot better than

1101
00:57:20.900 --> 00:57:21.640
the boys are right

1102
00:57:21.640 --> 00:57:28.320
now, so anyway, you know we've been able to give that up for that, yes, the

1103
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:30.600
lioness is, so we need

1104
00:57:30.600 --> 00:57:34.440
to be really careful about not bringing our own biases, even if our biases are

1105
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:34.680
about

1106
00:57:34.680 --> 00:57:41.480
loving swings more than moogers, because that is, it works for some people and

1107
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:42.120
it doesn't work for

1108
00:57:42.120 --> 00:57:45.540
everybody, and the more I get into this subject, the more I know there is no

1109
00:57:45.540 --> 00:57:46.600
one answer, so there

1110
00:57:46.600 --> 00:57:51.590
is no one design, but we do need to keep thinking as designers, sorry, it was a

1111
00:57:51.590 --> 00:57:52.280
very long event.

1112
00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:55.430
No, no, no, that's all to the good, there was a chap sat next to Hannah, who

1113
00:57:55.430 --> 00:57:56.360
had his hand up ages

1114
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:59.080
ago and you were noting a long match, you want to add anything to the

1115
00:57:59.080 --> 00:58:01.240
discussion, you saw, yeah,

1116
00:58:01.240 --> 00:58:06.480
and then I think we had a few hands. I didn't have my hand up. Did you know, oh

1117
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:07.720
, okay, but that's

1118
00:58:07.720 --> 00:58:13.790
okay, um, it's all right, blah, blah, blah, blah, okay, it's, you know, in my

1119
00:58:13.790 --> 00:58:16.840
work, I went through

1120
00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:22.490
this, like, oh we're going to design this nice piece of urban realm, we're

1121
00:58:22.490 --> 00:58:25.080
going to make it inclusive

1122
00:58:25.080 --> 00:58:31.240
and welcoming and flexible and high quality, and guess what, there was a bench,

1123
00:58:31.240 --> 00:58:32.920
why? Old people need

1124
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:37.030
places to sit when they're traveling around the city, well guess who was

1125
00:58:37.030 --> 00:58:38.360
sitting on the bench,

1126
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:44.440
street drinkers, even when there was a million other people doing everything

1127
00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:46.040
and anything in that

1128
00:58:46.040 --> 00:58:50.770
space, the street drinkers liked to be there because it was a great public

1129
00:58:50.770 --> 00:58:53.400
space, the bench is no

1130
00:58:53.400 --> 00:59:00.230
longer there, it got taken out, why politicians, they make choices about our

1131
00:59:00.230 --> 00:59:01.320
urban realm,

1132
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:06.900
and they are listening to the people who are crying and complaining the loudest

1133
00:59:06.900 --> 00:59:08.040
, you know,

1134
00:59:08.040 --> 00:59:12.900
they're not paying, you know, when we talk about doing consultation and being

1135
00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:13.800
inclusive and all

1136
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:18.390
that stuff, I think public art can be a great tool for that because there are a

1137
00:59:18.390 --> 00:59:19.240
lot of people

1138
00:59:19.240 --> 00:59:23.450
who wouldn't put themselves forward, they wouldn't participate, if you said we

1139
00:59:23.450 --> 00:59:24.680
're doing a consultation

1140
00:59:24.680 --> 00:59:29.070
about this public space and how comfortable everybody feels here, there are a

1141
00:59:29.070 --> 00:59:31.240
lot of individuals who

1142
00:59:31.240 --> 00:59:37.070
who would be users of that space who wouldn't necessarily attend a consultation

1143
00:59:37.070 --> 00:59:38.040
, if you had

1144
00:59:38.040 --> 00:59:44.840
another mechanism to involve the community and more of the community, like a

1145
00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:47.320
public art project or a

1146
00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:50.520
warming space or something like that and then you kind of like slipped the

1147
00:59:50.520 --> 00:59:51.400
consultation in,

1148
00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:56.440
I think that would be great, but yeah, politicians, politicians make choices

1149
00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:56.840
about

1150
00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:00.600
it. It's about that 3pm on a wet Wednesday consultation thing, it's like who's

1151
01:00:00.600 --> 01:00:01.720
going to come to that,

1152
01:00:01.720 --> 01:00:05.560
speaking of coming to people, we've got someone with a microphone over there

1153
01:00:05.560 --> 01:00:06.440
and then I know, yes,

1154
01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:09.580
I definitely want to chat to you and then I know you as this lady over there

1155
01:00:09.580 --> 01:00:10.360
had a question,

1156
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:14.830
so let's go in that order if we may, okay, slightly don't add to say this to a

1157
01:00:14.830 --> 01:00:15.800
room of mostly

1158
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:20.660
architects, but I think as architects we really need to check our arrogance, I

1159
01:00:20.660 --> 01:00:23.080
think we think we

1160
01:00:23.080 --> 01:00:27.890
have a lot of power where we don't and what I thought was a really interesting

1161
01:00:27.890 --> 01:00:28.680
case study

1162
01:00:28.680 --> 01:00:33.630
amongst the chat tonight was actually Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, which is

1163
01:00:33.630 --> 01:00:36.520
nowhere work and I think

1164
01:00:36.520 --> 01:00:41.270
how crazy is that that the space for you totally changed, where the physical

1165
01:00:41.270 --> 01:00:42.840
aspects, nothing changed,

1166
01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:46.120
nothing about the space actually changed, so forget your talk about benches,

1167
01:00:46.120 --> 01:00:51.960
phantin, nothing changed except Beyonce, so let's bring more Beyonce into

1168
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:52.840
public spaces,

1169
01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:56.200
like it's about activating spaces. I think that deserves a round of applause.

1170
01:00:56.200 --> 01:01:02.520
Yeah, let's check our arrogance, it's not all about benches and lighting.

1171
01:01:02.520 --> 01:01:06.120
Great, I'm going to come to the lady and I'm going to give my microphone and

1172
01:01:06.120 --> 01:01:06.200
then

1173
01:01:06.200 --> 01:01:08.360
more come to the gentleman, if that's where that works and then I'm going to

1174
01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:09.320
come to the lady next

1175
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:15.640
to me if that works. I guess I'm probably going to echo or reinforce some of

1176
01:01:15.640 --> 01:01:16.120
the things that have

1177
01:01:16.120 --> 01:01:20.070
been said. I'm an artist filmmaker and I've just done a project in Ebsweet

1178
01:01:20.070 --> 01:01:20.840
Garden City,

1179
01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:25.320
which is one of the largest developments happening at the moment and so I've

1180
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:26.440
been coming in kind of

1181
01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:30.360
towards the end of the process. I haven't been doing any consultation sessions

1182
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:31.160
and I've been working

1183
01:01:31.160 --> 01:01:36.460
intergenerationally with a much older community and the much younger community

1184
01:01:36.460 --> 01:01:37.240
and I think

1185
01:01:37.240 --> 01:01:43.000
consistently what's come up is people want to find their own spaces and they

1186
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:44.440
want totally

1187
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:49.860
undesired spaces. They want to populate the in-between, the under-use, they

1188
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:50.760
want to invent

1189
01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:59.050
and be in their own quiet way as an arctic as they want to be. So for me, that

1190
01:01:59.050 --> 01:01:59.400
's sort of just,

1191
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:04.600
yeah, I guess just from my personal experience in the last year feeling like

1192
01:02:04.600 --> 01:02:06.600
people need to

1193
01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:12.300
be really free to be creative in how they use their own public space and not be

1194
01:02:12.300 --> 01:02:13.320
dictated by

1195
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:18.620
a bench or a fountain or a, because they just get misused or re-appropriated or

1196
01:02:18.620 --> 01:02:19.960
reused and I think

1197
01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:26.150
that's where the energy of the city lies. Yeah, absolutely. I think the best

1198
01:02:26.150 --> 01:02:27.400
installations I saw

1199
01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:31.060
at London Design Festival ever was, and I can't remember who the architectural

1200
01:02:31.060 --> 01:02:31.960
designer was, but

1201
01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:37.560
it was a series in broadgate, circus, in that complex and the PLs were getting

1202
01:02:37.560 --> 01:02:38.040
quite annoyed

1203
01:02:38.040 --> 01:02:41.640
because people were kind of using it. It was a series of benches and in various

1204
01:02:41.640 --> 01:02:41.960
shapes or

1205
01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:45.160
forms. People were using it before they'd done the press preview, but actually

1206
01:02:45.160 --> 01:02:45.480
people felt they

1207
01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:48.130
had permission to use it. There was construction workers there, there was

1208
01:02:48.130 --> 01:02:48.920
families, it kind of

1209
01:02:48.920 --> 01:02:52.840
worked and that's the kind of spaces that we need. So benches don't necessarily

1210
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:53.480
have to be bad,

1211
01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:57.130
but they just have to be better. Okay, now I was talking to this chap before

1212
01:02:57.130 --> 01:02:58.120
the talk started

1213
01:02:58.120 --> 01:03:04.600
and he used to have a rather interesting experience and angle on the police

1214
01:03:04.600 --> 01:03:05.800
issue. So over to you,

1215
01:03:05.800 --> 01:03:10.240
sir. I'm Brian Quinn. I used to work at Cave and at Design Council and when I

1216
01:03:10.240 --> 01:03:11.880
was at Cave, I actually

1217
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:15.720
was given the role of building bridges, shall we say, with the police and

1218
01:03:15.720 --> 01:03:16.680
secure by design

1219
01:03:16.680 --> 01:03:22.680
population and not to see them as other and different. I would echo what this

1220
01:03:22.680 --> 01:03:23.800
lady said about

1221
01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:27.640
as designers we shouldn't be arrogant to sort of think that we know the answers

1222
01:03:27.640 --> 01:03:29.080
because as an

1223
01:03:29.080 --> 01:03:32.510
example we did a piece of work that was funded by the home office but included

1224
01:03:32.510 --> 01:03:33.560
designers, planners

1225
01:03:33.560 --> 01:03:37.320
and the police looking at recently built housing schemes and one of the really

1226
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:38.520
interesting things

1227
01:03:38.520 --> 01:03:43.870
was which I think also chimes with what Dinah's saying about Jane Jacobs is

1228
01:03:43.870 --> 01:03:45.480
there's a certain

1229
01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:52.680
naivety and I think also a period feel to Jane Jacobs in terms of her reliance

1230
01:03:52.680 --> 01:03:54.440
on the community

1231
01:03:54.440 --> 01:03:58.340
policing itself and the police when we went round a lot of housing estates said

1232
01:03:58.340 --> 01:03:58.760
that just

1233
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:03.470
doesn't happen anymore. People do not self-police their neighbors, they call

1234
01:04:03.470 --> 01:04:06.040
the police and in if

1235
01:04:06.040 --> 01:04:10.370
a neighbor parks in front of their house they call the police because they're

1236
01:04:10.370 --> 01:04:11.320
not prepared to

1237
01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:15.560
sort of tackle the neighbor or if there are kids playing and perhaps they're

1238
01:04:15.560 --> 01:04:16.280
being a little bit

1239
01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:21.310
noisy, no parent is going to tell off another parent's kids and they said that

1240
01:04:21.310 --> 01:04:22.200
was then become

1241
01:04:22.200 --> 01:04:25.750
a real drain on the public purse and I think that's something we need to sort

1242
01:04:25.750 --> 01:04:26.680
of think about once

1243
01:04:26.680 --> 01:04:32.740
we design places is sort of can it operate without significant intervention

1244
01:04:32.740 --> 01:04:34.280
afterwards because often

1245
01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:39.020
the police are brought in when there's perceived to be a problem. You know

1246
01:04:39.020 --> 01:04:40.520
there is a problem, people

1247
01:04:40.520 --> 01:04:44.440
are complaining about it, it's getting to politicians, something must be done

1248
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:46.040
and the challenge with

1249
01:04:46.040 --> 01:04:51.160
designers often as a community is we are competing against a catalog of kids

1250
01:04:51.160 --> 01:04:53.000
that can be bought for

1251
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:58.310
the budget say more fences, more barbed wire CCTV and there is a chunk of the

1252
01:04:58.310 --> 01:04:59.560
population that

1253
01:04:59.560 --> 01:05:06.530
wants that, they want a hardened approach, they want alleyways cut off, they

1254
01:05:06.530 --> 01:05:07.720
want nobody there

1255
01:05:08.600 --> 01:05:12.040
to feel that they can sleep at night, some people want a more creative approach

1256
01:05:12.040 --> 01:05:13.480
but not every body

1257
01:05:13.480 --> 01:05:17.050
and I think this is the, I suppose I would give a plea for sort of better

1258
01:05:17.050 --> 01:05:18.360
dialogue between different

1259
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:22.290
people who have beyond the design community and understand where they're coming

1260
01:05:22.290 --> 01:05:23.160
from and I

1261
01:05:23.160 --> 01:05:27.120
ran some quite interesting sessions with the police and security advisors and

1262
01:05:27.120 --> 01:05:28.280
what have you, that they

1263
01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:34.220
are in some ways used to being in a tell mode telling people what needs to

1264
01:05:34.220 --> 01:05:35.560
happen but they can

1265
01:05:35.560 --> 01:05:40.030
be in a dialogue mode if you give them space and you listen to what they're

1266
01:05:40.030 --> 01:05:41.240
saying and also to

1267
01:05:41.240 --> 01:05:46.360
chime with what Deborah was saying is if you can create shared evidence and

1268
01:05:46.360 --> 01:05:47.560
research that they all

1269
01:05:47.560 --> 01:05:51.690
buy into you can get better outcomes but sort of slinging mud at each other

1270
01:05:51.690 --> 01:05:53.800
doesn't necessarily help

1271
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:57.540
and I'm conscious that secure by designers have you know has been quite

1272
01:05:57.540 --> 01:05:58.840
challenged in that front,

1273
01:05:58.840 --> 01:06:02.360
I mean it doesn't help but they're not, it's not really done in a very visual

1274
01:06:02.360 --> 01:06:03.160
designer-y way,

1275
01:06:04.200 --> 01:06:08.390
which doesn't help but I think that I would make a plea for dialogue having

1276
01:06:08.390 --> 01:06:09.240
being part of it and

1277
01:06:09.240 --> 01:06:12.040
in the thick of it and when I first started talking to the police I was

1278
01:06:12.040 --> 01:06:13.080
literally barrept at a

1279
01:06:13.080 --> 01:06:16.790
conference and three years later once we had some shared evidence there was a

1280
01:06:16.790 --> 01:06:18.440
bit more you know

1281
01:06:18.440 --> 01:06:22.340
agreement that there was there was a shared view on certain things and as

1282
01:06:22.340 --> 01:06:23.640
designers to accept that

1283
01:06:23.640 --> 01:06:29.170
times when they're wrong you know yes and particularly just as an example the

1284
01:06:29.170 --> 01:06:30.600
whole issue of rear parking

1285
01:06:30.600 --> 01:06:37.170
courts really big issue for the police and actually I sort of we rode back a

1286
01:06:37.170 --> 01:06:38.840
huge amount on rewriting

1287
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:43.170
design guidance for housing you know around things like rear parking courts and

1288
01:06:43.170 --> 01:06:43.640
how badly

1289
01:06:43.640 --> 01:06:49.480
they perform in terms of crime and thankfully we're seeing less of that now but

1290
01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:51.480
anyhow I'll let

1291
01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:59.250
you get on, happy to chat more to future. Thank you. I'm gonna try and remember

1292
01:06:59.250 --> 01:06:59.960
what I was gonna say

1293
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:06.620
but it goes back to Beyonce and oh wait everything does right and sadly I've

1294
01:07:06.620 --> 01:07:08.840
heard like accounts of

1295
01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:14.470
not very good experiences of the Beyonce concert in the area especially like

1296
01:07:14.470 --> 01:07:16.040
some hostility from

1297
01:07:16.040 --> 01:07:22.680
let's say local residents towards the concert goers so it almost seems like the

1298
01:07:22.680 --> 01:07:24.200
like things like

1299
01:07:24.200 --> 01:07:27.970
people throwing stones at people who are going to the concert things like that

1300
01:07:27.970 --> 01:07:28.680
so it kind of

1301
01:07:28.680 --> 01:07:33.580
seem like the essence of Beyonce might have not stuck around in the area but I

1302
01:07:33.580 --> 01:07:34.360
think there's

1303
01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:38.790
something to be said about it's not like there aren't queer people in Tottenham

1304
01:07:38.790 --> 01:07:39.560
or people who don't

1305
01:07:39.560 --> 01:07:42.660
love Beyonce and Tottenham and actually want to do good but I think there's

1306
01:07:42.660 --> 01:07:43.880
something to be said about

1307
01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:49.360
the I guess the isolation and sort of how the stadium might have been built is

1308
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:51.240
like this project

1309
01:07:51.240 --> 01:07:55.970
like how you said the area around is still the same but the stadiums completely

1310
01:07:55.970 --> 01:07:57.160
transform and how

1311
01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:04.170
maybe the community and context almost like flip the scenario around in terms

1312
01:08:04.170 --> 01:08:05.640
of inclusivity

1313
01:08:05.640 --> 01:08:10.440
and how we're talking about the police and Deborah has the course and they look

1314
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:11.160
into how

1315
01:08:11.160 --> 01:08:15.270
acne police most people are from Essex because they're too scared to live in

1316
01:08:15.270 --> 01:08:16.200
the actual area

1317
01:08:16.200 --> 01:08:20.700
so I think there's something to be said about how Beyonce is amazing the

1318
01:08:20.700 --> 01:08:23.400
essence of Beyonce

1319
01:08:23.400 --> 01:08:28.280
should stick around but it should be considered when I guess like developments

1320
01:08:28.280 --> 01:08:29.320
are made and how

1321
01:08:29.320 --> 01:08:35.180
do you not create like an isolated case of people are going in and out for one

1322
01:08:35.180 --> 01:08:37.320
thing yes yeah yeah

1323
01:08:37.320 --> 01:08:41.040
no great point um let's come to you again and then after that I think we're

1324
01:08:41.040 --> 01:08:42.200
going to have to go to

1325
01:08:42.200 --> 01:08:45.610
these speakers for their final points and then we can just continue the

1326
01:08:45.610 --> 01:08:46.760
discussion perhaps in a

1327
01:08:46.760 --> 01:08:51.230
more informal way hi sorry I I really I only want to speak because I also work

1328
01:08:51.230 --> 01:08:52.360
for a council and I

1329
01:08:52.360 --> 01:08:57.320
feel like there's been a bit of council bashing or government bashing and which

1330
01:08:57.320 --> 01:08:58.440
I totally understand

1331
01:08:58.440 --> 01:09:01.490
but I think I think there is a few things to think about there and I just want

1332
01:09:01.490 --> 01:09:02.440
to respond to a few

1333
01:09:02.440 --> 01:09:07.160
a few points so somebody talked about um you know designers saying go you know

1334
01:09:07.160 --> 01:09:09.240
it's that Beyonce

1335
01:09:09.240 --> 01:09:12.710
thing was about um you know the different use of space rather than any

1336
01:09:12.710 --> 01:09:14.040
different design there's a

1337
01:09:14.040 --> 01:09:18.170
lot that goes into the design of the facilitation of those things so there is

1338
01:09:18.170 --> 01:09:19.240
still like a whole

1339
01:09:19.240 --> 01:09:23.810
element of design to those elements so let's not forget that um I think um I

1340
01:09:23.810 --> 01:09:25.720
really think um you

1341
01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:30.360
know you talked about the point earlier around um you know the bench being

1342
01:09:30.360 --> 01:09:31.640
taken away because

1343
01:09:31.640 --> 01:09:34.960
politicians decided that there's a lot that goes into that decisions and if you

1344
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:35.640
have the right

1345
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:39.190
people to fight fight on your council it kind of really goes back to what

1346
01:09:39.190 --> 01:09:40.760
Martin said about going

1347
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:43.650
people think there's good and bad people but when you start to tell them no

1348
01:09:43.650 --> 01:09:44.680
people would just people

1349
01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:47.390
if those drinkers aren't there they'll go somewhere else and they're still

1350
01:09:47.390 --> 01:09:48.600
people like what do we do

1351
01:09:48.600 --> 01:09:52.180
about how they feel about you know do we give them help in other ways in the

1352
01:09:52.180 --> 01:09:53.400
borough I mean we have a

1353
01:09:53.400 --> 01:09:57.670
peer we have a peer that is apparently um the second most popular place for

1354
01:09:57.670 --> 01:09:58.920
suicide in this country

1355
01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:05.160
and we're like well we can't get rid of the beer but how do we address that and

1356
01:10:05.160 --> 01:10:06.200
how how do we say

1357
01:10:06.200 --> 01:10:09.310
they're not bad people that are doing that but we don't want them to be doing

1358
01:10:09.310 --> 01:10:10.600
that so how can we

1359
01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:14.650
look at space and fight the right battles to to address those issues and third

1360
01:10:14.650 --> 01:10:15.560
ly when it comes to

1361
01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:22.130
um co-designer you know you talked about um more uh impact and many people

1362
01:10:22.130 --> 01:10:23.240
talked about empowering

1363
01:10:23.240 --> 01:10:28.190
communities to be part of designing spaces I think is really important but I

1364
01:10:28.190 --> 01:10:29.000
would encourage you

1365
01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:33.770
um so so for my council because I genuinely believe in that in the urban spaces

1366
01:10:33.770 --> 01:10:35.080
that we design

1367
01:10:35.080 --> 01:10:40.060
I've like made it a priority that we do these co-design exercises get as many

1368
01:10:40.060 --> 01:10:41.160
stakeholders as

1369
01:10:41.160 --> 01:10:44.280
many different age groups backgrounds all of those things look at the

1370
01:10:44.280 --> 01:10:46.040
representation but I've encouraged

1371
01:10:46.040 --> 01:10:48.990
that in my council it wouldn't have happened we would have spent money on other

1372
01:10:48.990 --> 01:10:49.480
things that I

1373
01:10:49.480 --> 01:10:52.970
didn't think are important it's end of financial year if any of you have

1374
01:10:52.970 --> 01:10:54.280
clients who are councils

1375
01:10:54.280 --> 01:10:58.080
go and say don't spend it on that spend it on this spend it on this one day co-

1376
01:10:58.080 --> 01:10:59.320
design activity we can

1377
01:10:59.320 --> 01:11:03.330
do it in a school we can do it here and they'll find the money to do it because

1378
01:11:03.330 --> 01:11:05.320
I did um so yeah

1379
01:11:05.320 --> 01:11:09.610
that's my other two cents perfect okay I'm going to start with the closing

1380
01:11:09.610 --> 01:11:11.000
thoughts I'm afraid

1381
01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:20.800
um needs gentlemen sorry I've tried not to say anything but no one's talked

1382
01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:21.960
about streets

1383
01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:26.680
and these are the spaces that we use all the time and this is like probably the

1384
01:11:26.680 --> 01:11:27.880
space where I've

1385
01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:34.250
experienced the most sort of discomfort and being scared and actually like how

1386
01:11:34.250 --> 01:11:35.400
do we design them

1387
01:11:35.400 --> 01:11:39.810
to be safe and also I mean I think even like designing out I think that

1388
01:11:39.810 --> 01:11:42.440
language is problematic

1389
01:11:42.440 --> 01:11:48.280
so how do we feel safe but then make it safe yeah I don't I don't know that's

1390
01:11:48.280 --> 01:11:49.480
just a question but

1391
01:11:49.480 --> 01:11:53.240
we've talked a lot about public spaces but not actually about the street as the

1392
01:11:53.240 --> 01:11:54.200
biggest public space

1393
01:11:54.200 --> 01:12:00.280
okay okay um Deborah I'm going to come to you if you're closing thought and

1394
01:12:00.280 --> 01:12:01.400
perhaps what's you

1395
01:12:01.400 --> 01:12:06.070
what what you've what surprised you what you want to sort of end on as your you

1396
01:12:06.070 --> 01:12:08.040
know closing gamba

1397
01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:15.300
uh my closing gamba is how much do you think a graduate who starts as a police

1398
01:12:15.300 --> 01:12:17.240
officer gets

1399
01:12:17.240 --> 01:12:21.130
before they start the course how much do you think they get they've just

1400
01:12:21.130 --> 01:12:22.520
finished uni three years at

1401
01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:29.920
uni come on Ben don't tell them don't tell them Ben tell them well are you are

1402
01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:30.360
you definitely sure

1403
01:12:30.360 --> 01:12:38.720
what about this yeah yeah um 36 000 pounds 37 and a half 37 and a half thousand

1404
01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:39.800
pounds before you

1405
01:12:39.800 --> 01:12:45.990
even take a step you do 10 10 10 months 10 months and then you get another

1406
01:12:45.990 --> 01:12:46.440
grand

1407
01:12:46.440 --> 01:12:55.640
policing is an industry in our country and it's very well lubricated and I

1408
01:12:55.640 --> 01:12:56.760
think your point about

1409
01:12:56.760 --> 01:13:04.200
we talk about design out crime crime and the war on crime is industrialized

1410
01:13:04.200 --> 01:13:07.960
warfare the money spent

1411
01:13:07.960 --> 01:13:13.180
on tasers and I don't even know the name so things they shoot out in the road

1412
01:13:13.180 --> 01:13:14.520
on the street to slow

1413
01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:21.290
down the cars the the software the hardware honestly it is unbl just lift the

1414
01:13:21.290 --> 01:13:23.000
lid on what is going on

1415
01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:27.770
because it shouldn't be design out crime it should be design in community it

1416
01:13:27.770 --> 01:13:29.640
should be about communities

1417
01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:34.240
taking care of each other the inspiration I got is instead of spending all that

1418
01:13:34.240 --> 01:13:36.120
money on young men

1419
01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:39.810
who quote when interviewed about why they want to join the police force thank

1420
01:13:39.810 --> 01:13:40.840
you for this devor

1421
01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:44.970
because you introduced me to man who'd been in the police force for 30 years

1422
01:13:44.970 --> 01:13:45.880
why did you join

1423
01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:50.320
because I wanted to drive a car really fast with a blue light on top and they

1424
01:13:50.320 --> 01:13:51.480
said yes mate that's

1425
01:13:51.480 --> 01:13:57.210
why we all do it so that that's what we're up against we want to take that type

1426
01:13:57.210 --> 01:13:58.680
of philosophy

1427
01:13:58.680 --> 01:14:03.840
and replace it with money spent on community not a war on poverty not a war on

1428
01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:04.600
people with

1429
01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:09.190
mental illnesses you know when the police say we're not going to use our time

1430
01:14:09.190 --> 01:14:10.120
looking after

1431
01:14:10.120 --> 01:14:13.240
mental health patients anymore what the fuck are you going to do with the money

1432
01:14:13.240 --> 01:14:13.720
that you're paid

1433
01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:17.670
to look after mental health student people with you know the the money at the

1434
01:14:17.670 --> 01:14:18.920
bottom of this is

1435
01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:26.040
extraordinary so my plea for you is to look to the Maori culture where they

1436
01:14:26.040 --> 01:14:28.840
have the Maori guardians

1437
01:14:28.840 --> 01:14:34.360
who are members of the local community who are the usually it's a woman over 40

1438
01:14:34.360 --> 01:14:35.160
who goes up to the

1439
01:14:35.160 --> 01:14:39.810
children misbehaving in the streets because she knows who they are she works in

1440
01:14:39.810 --> 01:14:40.760
the community

1441
01:14:40.760 --> 01:14:44.880
there are over a thousand of them in in in New Zealand and they and that again

1442
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:45.560
thank you for the

1443
01:14:45.560 --> 01:14:50.220
reference Deborah and it's amazing there are other ways of doing it and we

1444
01:14:50.220 --> 01:14:51.960
really need to step right

1445
01:14:51.960 --> 01:14:56.020
back from all these kind of little tools and things that we're talking about

1446
01:14:56.020 --> 01:14:56.680
and look at the

1447
01:14:56.680 --> 01:15:01.300
big vision we need a world without less money spent on policing thank you where

1448
01:15:01.300 --> 01:15:02.920
's the applause

1449
01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:09.400
I thought I know they were just politely pausing okay we're going Martin

1450
01:15:09.400 --> 01:15:11.480
closing thoughts and then

1451
01:15:11.480 --> 01:15:19.000
we'll um hello you're really getting my step count up yeah you know I've really

1452
01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:20.280
enjoyed listening to

1453
01:15:20.280 --> 01:15:26.920
the the way that the debate has moved now and again away from physical design

1454
01:15:26.920 --> 01:15:27.800
and to your point

1455
01:15:27.800 --> 01:15:32.950
of curation places and I think that if we if we embed design in how we think

1456
01:15:32.950 --> 01:15:34.760
about building and

1457
01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:39.520
making places it's as much about what we do in them and what we create to

1458
01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:41.080
enable things to happen

1459
01:15:41.080 --> 01:15:45.480
in them as it is about designing benches and fences and things that stop cars

1460
01:15:45.480 --> 01:15:46.360
driving into

1461
01:15:46.360 --> 01:15:51.210
into buildings it's about what we create in order to let people do stuff that

1462
01:15:51.210 --> 01:15:52.760
makes places happy and

1463
01:15:52.760 --> 01:16:00.410
full and joyful more fountains all fountains okay fountain of knowledge um h

1464
01:16:00.410 --> 01:16:01.560
annah you're up next

1465
01:16:01.560 --> 01:16:05.080
um so a couple of things I've been thinking about as everyone's been speaking

1466
01:16:05.080 --> 01:16:07.720
um about thinking about

1467
01:16:07.720 --> 01:16:13.000
people ruining things or tagging stuff like I kind of straddle the street art

1468
01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:15.000
graffiti artist community

1469
01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:18.890
and compared to also being commissioned by local authorities and so they're

1470
01:16:18.890 --> 01:16:20.360
very different spectrum

1471
01:16:20.360 --> 01:16:24.840
and one of the things that law clients or even sometimes people come up to me

1472
01:16:24.840 --> 01:16:25.480
what's I'm paying

1473
01:16:25.480 --> 01:16:29.380
murals and be like oh my god but it's just gonna get tagged and it's like well

1474
01:16:29.380 --> 01:16:30.680
then we fix it like

1475
01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:35.590
all we have to do is fix things one more time than it was broken and you got to

1476
01:16:35.590 --> 01:16:37.320
do it again and again

1477
01:16:37.320 --> 01:16:41.370
and again and that's how we have nice things like even if there was someone who

1478
01:16:41.370 --> 01:16:42.600
threw stones I mean

1479
01:16:42.600 --> 01:16:46.590
Tottenham I think gets a bad ripen it doesn't deserve it but that would have

1480
01:16:46.590 --> 01:16:48.840
been one dickhead

1481
01:16:48.840 --> 01:16:51.830
do you know what I mean it is not the community of Tottenham so there's always

1482
01:16:51.830 --> 01:16:52.600
gonna be someone

1483
01:16:52.600 --> 01:16:56.440
who tags or someone who throws zones or someone who pisses in the corner of the

1484
01:16:56.440 --> 01:16:57.160
alley or someone

1485
01:16:57.160 --> 01:17:01.320
there's gonna be there's we can't stop that so like I just think we need to

1486
01:17:01.320 --> 01:17:02.600
really commit to

1487
01:17:02.600 --> 01:17:07.710
what we're doing and yeah just really like give it some wellie and then I just

1488
01:17:07.710 --> 01:17:08.280
wanted to say one

1489
01:17:08.280 --> 01:17:12.680
thing on the the arrogance of architects and artists and designers and all that

1490
01:17:12.680 --> 01:17:13.160
because I

1491
01:17:13.160 --> 01:17:16.360
feel a bit conflicted with this because I do a lot of engagement work but I

1492
01:17:16.360 --> 01:17:17.400
also think sometimes

1493
01:17:17.400 --> 01:17:21.520
there's put like so much emphasis on like the community can lead something or

1494
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:22.280
do something

1495
01:17:22.280 --> 01:17:27.480
and like so many people are managing so much in their lives right now from cost

1496
01:17:27.480 --> 01:17:28.520
of living to like

1497
01:17:28.520 --> 01:17:33.180
just getting by and then to be like and also if you could help us design this

1498
01:17:33.180 --> 01:17:35.000
park like it's like

1499
01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:40.410
I just think we need to really think about not being wholly extractive and

1500
01:17:40.410 --> 01:17:41.720
think about who has the

1501
01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:46.480
time to actually help make those decisions because sometimes we just go back to

1502
01:17:46.480 --> 01:17:47.880
the same people

1503
01:17:47.880 --> 01:17:52.440
in the in the community or this or think who has the capacity to actually do

1504
01:17:52.440 --> 01:17:54.360
that and it is our job

1505
01:17:54.360 --> 01:17:58.760
as long as we like listen and we can we integrate that I think we can't just

1506
01:17:58.760 --> 01:17:59.640
yeah it is a real

1507
01:17:59.640 --> 01:18:04.360
balance and we can't and it takes money to invest in people to ask them to like

1508
01:18:04.360 --> 01:18:05.320
put things on or

1509
01:18:05.320 --> 01:18:09.730
to do stuff or whatever and that takes a huge amount of money because yeah to

1510
01:18:09.730 --> 01:18:10.200
just get the

1511
01:18:10.200 --> 01:18:15.400
community to do it is a huge ask especially at this moment in time so yeah

1512
01:18:15.400 --> 01:18:17.320
perfect thank you Sarah

1513
01:18:22.760 --> 01:18:27.560
thoroughly enjoyed that Hannah and yeah I think actually just ripping straight

1514
01:18:27.560 --> 01:18:28.040
off that point

1515
01:18:28.040 --> 01:18:32.010
and there's this whole thing about like engagement burnout that people aren't

1516
01:18:32.010 --> 01:18:33.080
considering you know

1517
01:18:33.080 --> 01:18:36.110
the whole idea of keeping going back to community people go but they just don't

1518
01:18:36.110 --> 01:18:36.680
care they're not

1519
01:18:36.680 --> 01:18:40.050
engaged and it's like well you've been ripping up there a state for 10 years I

1520
01:18:40.050 --> 01:18:41.000
'd be pretty pissed

1521
01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:44.040
off by this point too you keep asking their opinion they're not doing it anyway

1522
01:18:44.040 --> 01:18:45.720
being really

1523
01:18:45.720 --> 01:18:50.090
transparent in our designs and like in our approaches all you can do in that

1524
01:18:50.090 --> 01:18:51.400
setting but I just wanted

1525
01:18:51.400 --> 01:18:57.730
to return to one thing my friend Tilly is here she's a runner she's an an a

1526
01:18:57.730 --> 01:18:58.760
filmmaker not an

1527
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:02.940
architect and she says we all need to watch if the streets were on fire there

1528
01:19:02.940 --> 01:19:05.160
you go change resources

1529
01:19:05.160 --> 01:19:11.390
people and I wanted to get back to your point about Beyonce and it's so nice

1530
01:19:11.390 --> 01:19:12.600
that people are

1531
01:19:12.600 --> 01:19:19.030
talking about Beyonce at a talk like this but I just think when when you're

1532
01:19:19.030 --> 01:19:20.120
talking about like

1533
01:19:20.120 --> 01:19:23.580
people's own stones and people find it problematic the way that women were

1534
01:19:23.580 --> 01:19:24.200
acting in the streets and

1535
01:19:24.200 --> 01:19:29.450
this is actually what we're talking about but being girly so we're talking

1536
01:19:29.450 --> 01:19:31.080
before everyone got here

1537
01:19:31.080 --> 01:19:36.380
about how when I go out I'm like oh I'm going for drinks with the girls but if

1538
01:19:36.380 --> 01:19:37.320
a guy on site is

1539
01:19:37.320 --> 01:19:42.040
like oh go and ask the girls I'm like I'm a woman how fucking dare you so why

1540
01:19:42.040 --> 01:19:43.080
do I want to be like

1541
01:19:43.080 --> 01:19:48.700
a girly with my girls and Hannah loves to use the term girly and we want to go

1542
01:19:48.700 --> 01:19:50.600
and dance to Beyonce

1543
01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:56.470
but we're also women and it's this idea that's projected in film and and and

1544
01:19:56.470 --> 01:19:58.200
from a young age

1545
01:19:58.200 --> 01:20:05.020
what teen girls engaging are seen as silly and stupid and you know we start

1546
01:20:05.020 --> 01:20:06.760
constricting our body

1547
01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:10.220
actions and where we go and what streets we walk down and we're taught fear

1548
01:20:10.220 --> 01:20:11.640
from a really young age

1549
01:20:12.520 --> 01:20:16.890
and actually then the idea of a load of women dancing here the street and you

1550
01:20:16.890 --> 01:20:18.040
know gays and

1551
01:20:18.040 --> 01:20:22.720
nays having a great time going to Beyonce it's just kind of shocking and

1552
01:20:22.720 --> 01:20:24.200
actually that is that's

1553
01:20:24.200 --> 01:20:30.400
something that we've you know we've learned from movies and media it's not

1554
01:20:30.400 --> 01:20:32.360
architecture and we need

1555
01:20:32.360 --> 01:20:35.830
to examine what sources we're taking in a little bit more and I think it's that

1556
01:20:35.830 --> 01:20:36.680
point that you were

1557
01:20:36.680 --> 01:20:40.690
saying come out like about how we think we're so powerful but actually we just

1558
01:20:40.690 --> 01:20:41.400
I think there's

1559
01:20:41.400 --> 01:20:47.160
so much subconscious bias in our lives that are not architecture and I agree

1560
01:20:47.160 --> 01:20:47.800
with you about the

1561
01:20:47.800 --> 01:20:52.990
designing out it's like people walk down streets not just architects and that's

1562
01:20:52.990 --> 01:20:54.520
like why I write

1563
01:20:54.520 --> 01:20:58.020
about my running and people are like wait so you in the sports department or

1564
01:20:58.020 --> 01:20:58.280
you in the

1565
01:20:58.280 --> 01:21:01.110
architecture department I'm in the architecture department but I have another

1566
01:21:01.110 --> 01:21:02.360
personality like

1567
01:21:02.360 --> 01:21:06.440
and that's what running has brought to me is other voices that aren't

1568
01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:13.280
in this room essentially sorry everyone and I also just wanted to touch on

1569
01:21:13.280 --> 01:21:14.920
Deborah's point about

1570
01:21:14.920 --> 01:21:19.260
defunding the police whereas actually I'm anti-incarceration and I think we

1571
01:21:19.260 --> 01:21:19.800
should stop

1572
01:21:19.800 --> 01:21:23.550
imprisoning people because then there'd be less need for the police and that's

1573
01:21:23.550 --> 01:21:24.760
a feminist issue

1574
01:21:24.760 --> 01:21:29.720
and if we think that we as women are going to protect ourselves or protect

1575
01:21:29.720 --> 01:21:31.080
society in the fabric

1576
01:21:31.080 --> 01:21:37.610
of fear by policing and incarcerating and arresting and it's not the way for

1577
01:21:37.610 --> 01:21:39.400
incarceration ends up

1578
01:21:39.400 --> 01:21:45.760
costing women more when men come out of prison I mean the male population of

1579
01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:47.000
prisons is larger

1580
01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:54.120
than the women population but they tend to end up cohabiting with their caring

1581
01:21:54.120 --> 01:21:55.880
women in their lives

1582
01:21:55.880 --> 01:21:59.700
and therefore it costs the women more again there's already a gender pay gap

1583
01:21:59.700 --> 01:22:00.280
everything is

1584
01:22:00.280 --> 01:22:04.520
you know becoming a woman's burden so it's not just about defending the police

1585
01:22:04.520 --> 01:22:05.080
it's about

1586
01:22:05.080 --> 01:22:08.680
anti-incarceration if you want to be a true feminist it's not about being a

1587
01:22:08.680 --> 01:22:09.640
carceral feminist

1588
01:22:09.640 --> 01:22:13.160
okay thanks Sarah I think that deserves a round of applause as well right

1589
01:22:18.680 --> 01:22:24.600
so designing for inclusivity in the pub in the urban realm so we've had um

1590
01:22:24.600 --> 01:22:26.040
various

1591
01:22:26.040 --> 01:22:31.250
sort of strands of thought defunding the police um you know that balance and

1592
01:22:31.250 --> 01:22:32.840
making you know that

1593
01:22:32.840 --> 01:22:37.670
ability and permission to make things a bit more subversive so that things aren

1594
01:22:37.670 --> 01:22:38.600
't perfect the

1595
01:22:38.600 --> 01:22:42.020
imperfection in in the public realm being able to kind of deviate from what it

1596
01:22:42.020 --> 01:22:43.160
was originally used

1597
01:22:43.160 --> 01:22:48.840
for um yeah listening to women over 40 should always be encouraged Deborah

1598
01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:53.920
and if in doubt default to Queen Bay right so um but she isn't here tonight but

1599
01:22:53.920 --> 01:22:54.600
Hugh is so he's

1600
01:22:54.600 --> 01:23:01.040
gonna add some final closing remarks I think thank you very much can you hear

1601
01:23:01.040 --> 01:23:03.240
me yes I just

1602
01:23:03.240 --> 01:23:06.900
want to say thank you to all our speakers for taking time to join the debate

1603
01:23:06.900 --> 01:23:07.960
thank you to Martin

1604
01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:19.320
Sarah Hannah Deborah and Farah from Distance a round of applause please and um

1605
01:23:19.320 --> 01:23:20.360
the talks wouldn't

1606
01:23:20.360 --> 01:23:23.500
happen without people being willing to give up their time to come and do them

1607
01:23:23.500 --> 01:23:24.040
and thank you very

1608
01:23:24.040 --> 01:23:32.570
much Helen for sharing in your inevitable manner as always um just to quickly

1609
01:23:32.570 --> 01:23:34.120
say that we tend to

1610
01:23:34.120 --> 01:23:37.420
hang around a little bit so if anybody wants to carry conversations on have

1611
01:23:37.420 --> 01:23:38.280
some more drinks

1612
01:23:38.280 --> 01:23:42.220
please feel free it's always good to meet people you've not met before and uh

1613
01:23:42.220 --> 01:23:43.400
obviously there'll be a

1614
01:23:43.400 --> 01:23:49.500
another nigger only talk coming probably in the next month um in March so uh

1615
01:23:49.500 --> 01:23:51.160
look at our website or

1616
01:23:51.160 --> 01:23:55.160
whatever other platforms it appears on and if anyone wants to find out why

1617
01:23:55.160 --> 01:23:56.520
since we've been

1618
01:23:56.520 --> 01:24:00.240
talking about Beyonce why Taylor Swift helped to regenerate Victoria Park you

1619
01:24:00.240 --> 01:24:01.080
can go and speak to

1620
01:24:01.080 --> 01:24:05.040
my esteemed colleague Steve who's propping up the end of the bar there uh who's

1621
01:24:05.040 --> 01:24:06.280
suddenly a convert

1622
01:24:06.280 --> 01:24:11.670
to her music seemingly so uh which only happened this week in the office so um

1623
01:24:11.670 --> 01:24:12.600
yeah please hang around

1624
01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:15.490
have a chat have some more drinks and thank you very much for all coming and

1625
01:24:15.490 --> 01:24:16.200
contributing

1626
01:24:16.200 --> 01:24:30.900
thanks for listening for more on the Granny Talks visit our website about www.4

1627
01:24:30.900 --> 01:24:33.320
thspace.co.uk

1628
01:24:33.880 --> 01:24:38.110
where you can see all our past upcoming events or find us and subscribe to the

1629
01:24:38.110 --> 01:24:39.240
show in iTunes

1630
01:24:39.240 --> 01:24:48.200
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